George and religion

[This conversation was taken from another thread. Yes, it's about religion and so could get heated but I do ask you all to please play nicely. The title of the thread should give you a clue to its subject matter and if you're easily offended, please skip it. Thanks! Katiedot]

May be off track but I know in order to be a godparent the Catholic Church needs to know what church you belong to. Now, I read a while back that George is not religious at all. Read he's an "aethist" and doesn't believe in the Catholic Church. Don't know if it's true.

But then again, money changes everything. He may have offered the Catholic Church money to allow him to be a godparent. My ex offered the Catholic Church money to allow him to get an "anullment" from our 17 years of marriage. They complied, leaving our two kids to feel like bastards.

What you say is correct re CC. However, other Christian religions have "godparents", and not all Italians are Catholic.

By the way, I don't think George is and athiest, I believe he is an agnostic. Doesn't believe in religion as such. I'm sure he believes in God.

Sorry about your "anullment". Don't know how it works in NJ, works differently in different dioceses throughout US. NYC area has 3 dioceses, NY Arcdiocese, Brooklyn and Rockville Center. Each treat annulment process differently. It can suck, and it can be good. Too bad your kids were hurt in that matter.

Thanks patty for your explanation. Then that would make me an "agnostic" too. I don't believe in religious churches either. God is everywhere.

yes
Godson too
I think
but about Confirmation

You got it! He is. Thank goodness.

I'm so sorry to hear that, CindiGirl! It sounds to me like he's the "Bastard" and not your children. Forgive my French, please!

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he!

Mind is the Master power that moulds and makes,
And Man is Mind, and evermore he takes
The tool of Thought, and, shaping what he wills,
Brings forth a thousand joys, a thousand ills: —
He thinks in secret, and it comes to pass:
Environment is but his looking-glass. ~James Allen

"He never wrote theories, or for the sake of writing; but he wrote when he had a message, and it became a message only when he had lived it out in his own life, and knew that it was good. Thus he wrote facts, which he had proven by practice." ~Lily Allen, wife

And about George being an atheist, don’t believe it, it’s not true!

Sorry Cindy I got atheist and agnostic mixed up. With all the good he does he must have a firm belief in God.

Getting an anullment was one of the "kinder" things he did to me and my kids. He took all the money we earned but I was so glad to be rid of him it was worth it.

Cindi, all good catholics should never divorce, and even when they do, in the eyes of the church, they are not. Same with contraception, they don't, all kids are God given. With George though, although, and I agree agostic, not wihtout faith, but it must be hard for him to declare any path, for rousing some speculation or retort from some corner. So long as you do to others as have done to you, we all know right from wrong.

AFAIK George is godparent to a number of children. I think it's fairly common practice to get someone rich or influential to be the godparent to your child, irrespective of the godparent's religious beliefs.

fluffy wrote:Cindi, all good catholics should never divorce, and even when they do, in the eyes of the church, they are not. Same with contraception, they don't, all kids are God given. With George though, although, and I agree agostic, not wihtout faith, but it must be hard for him to declare any path, for rousing some speculation or retort from some corner. So long as you do to others as have done to you, we all know right from wrong.

George went to Catholic elementary school (St. Susanna in Mason, Ohio), and was an altar boy during that time. His parents are devout Catholics.

The Catholic church does permit the "Rhythm Method" for family planning, not artificial birth control. With divorce, the Bible permits it cases of immoral behavior (Gospel of Matthew), and annulment is certain situations where it is determined there was no valid marriage (spouse does not want children, homosexuality in a partner).

Have to agree with Katie, IMO being a godparent now a days isn't taken seriously as it was back in the day. When I became a godmother it was because of a shared religious belief and a close friendship with the parents. Now many years latter I know longer practice that religion, but the child has grown to an adult and can choose his own religious beliefs. If someone would ask me today to be the godparent of a child I would say no, would not want the responsibilty of being someones religious guide.

MM quote:
" and annulment is certain situations where it is determined there was no valid marriage (spouse does not want children, homosexuality in a partner). "

So then that tells me that the Catholc Church did not consider our 17 year marriage "valid" . We did have children and there was no homosexuality involved. He paid the church to get what he wanted and it's as simple as that.

He wanted the annulment to then marry his new gf, a widow. She ended up leaving him after only 2 years so the $3,000 he paid the church did him no good.
.

Fluffy, while what you say is essentially true, there are shadings that do come into play. What makes a "good" Catholic? There are many good Catholics that are divorced. They function within the tenets of their religion, are receiving the Sacraments and participating at Mass.
They cannot remarry, as by doing so they are committing adultery. If they wish to have the opportunity to marry with the Church again, they must petition the Church for an Annulment. This can be a long and expensive proposition. Annulment Tribunals procedures vary from diocese to diocese. Just within the NYC area we have 3 different dioceses. Archdiocese of NY (most diffiicult and expensive Tribunal I've been told), Diocese of Brooklyn (much less expensive and much fairer to petitioner and petitioned)(personal experience) and Diocese of Rockville Center (haven't heard anything regarding their Tribunal). There are letters to be written by both Petitioner and Petitioned, by family and friends of long standing, all pretaining to the reasons for the Petition in the first place. There are many acceptable reasons for petitioning besides the 2 already cited.
I don't know the ratio of granted to denied, as this is not a very highly publicized aspect of the Church, but it is a fact that some get it and some don't, but I don't believe it's simply a "buy your way out" type of situation.

We know George grew up in a devout Catholic family situation, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he must be devout. I've known many altar boys who were definite hellraisers when not on that altar.

What religion is Talia? Her husband, John, is also roman catholic

cindigirl wrote:[This conversation was taken from another thread. Yes, it's about religion and so could get heated but I do ask you all to please play nicely. The title of the thread should give you a clue to its subject matter and if you're easily offended, please skip it. Thanks! Katiedot]

May be off track but I know in order to be a godparent the Catholic Church needs to know what church you belong to. Now, I read a while back that George is not religious at all. Read he's an "aethist" and doesn't believe in the Catholic Church. Don't know if it's true.

But then again, money changes everything. He may have offered the Catholic Church money to allow him to be a godparent. My ex offered the Catholic Church money to allow him to get an "anullment" from our 17 years of marriage. They complied, leaving our two kids to feel like bastards.

Are you sure your ex offered the Catholic Church money to allow him to get an:"anulllment"? An Anullment itself is a process that is very costly as you have to collect/present documents/witnesses and go through three court sessions with a lawyer (or team of lawyers) and the prosecutor who follows the "canon law". All of the above is like a civil trial and can cost a huge amount of money especially if you have to pay out of state witnesses.

I am very sure my ex paid the Catholic Church money because my daughter was so upset about this she told me. He paid thousands of dollars to the church. She had no axe to grind telling me this. She was just very hurt. The Church asked me first for a letter. I explained in the letter how he physicallly and emotionally abused me and the children. VERY soon after the anullment took place. Apparently abuse is an excuse or an "invalid marriage."

Yes, abuse is definitely one of the excuses for an invalid marriage. Also, as socimar stated, it can be a very expensive procedure. Her explanation of the process was very good. Depending on the Tribunal , it can cost hundreds to thousands. I guess some Tribunals keep their procedures to a minimum. My husband got an annulment for $500. in Brooklyn, NY. My daughter got one in NM for $600. In the Archdiocese of NY, it costs thousands of dollars and takes a great deal of time.

So all you have to do is abuse your spouse, pay the church and get what you want. That's what it boils down to!

My two kids and I have very serious anger issues because of the way we were treated. My son especially.

Usually in cases of abuse, it's the abused party that files for the annulment. He parlayed being the bad guy into getting what he wanted. I'm sorry you have such anger issues, but the annulment doesn't make bastards of your kids. You were married according to your state's law, and were married when your kids were born, so there is no way that they could be considered illegimate and they shouldn't feel that they are. For them, it is the same as you being divorced. The "invalid marriage" only affects you and him. It makes remarriage within the Catholic Church possible, which wouldn't happen if only divorced.

Thanks patty for being so understanding. He took all my money so as the abused party there was no way I could afford an "annulment." I was just so happy to be rid of him. My son is going to have to work out his anger issues himself. He's doing fine though, he put himself through NJIT college and now is an engineer.

playfuldeb wrote:What religion is Talia? Her husband, John, is also roman catholic

I believe George was married in a civil ceremony in Vegas. Talia would still have to get an annulment but it is a different type, doesn't take as long, nor cost as much.

A little bit off topic, but funny - my girlfriend is married to an Irish American guy and they married in a civil ceremony in Las Vegas. He talked her into getting married in the Catholic Church and they did. The only I guess problem is that she was nine months pregnant when she walked down the church aisle. LOL

playfuldeb wrote:What religion is Talia? Her husband, John, is also roman catholic

what difference does Talia's religion make? She and George married in Vegas so as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, they were not married. Not that George need be concerned as he doesn't intend to marry again, either in or out of the Church.

If she and John Slattery got married within the Catholic Church, she would have gotten a different type of annulment which takes no time at all and is just available to those whose marriage was not sanctioned by any Church, Catholic or other religion.

I believe that Talia's father (Martin Balsin) was born Jewish. I don't know her mother's religion.

Joyce was born Italian/Dutch, but don't know her religion.

Pattygirl - maybe I was just curious. (jeeez)

Did Talia and John get married in a Church, other wise I do not see religion taking play unless a priest married them.

As for Godparent, I am one but I am not Catholic. I was never asked by the priest if I was. I feel it should not matter what religion one is, as long as your there for any type of question the child may have. So when they are adults and chose to live there life under what ever religion they want they understand there is no wrong religion, only what is right for them. IMO

i read this about him , don't know how to understand it very well , please explain what he means

From Larry King Live February 16, 2006:
King: Did you lose your faith, or do you still have it?
Clooney: I don't have a specific....Yeah...I don't....You know. It's an interesting thing. I'll tell you what's tricky about this. In talking about religion, if you're well known, anything you say, it sort of takes off about a bunch of other people and attacks their belief. So I always try to say that, you know, first and foremost, that whatever anybody believes as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, it's fair enough, and works, and I think, is real, and matters. I don't happen to have those beliefs, as much, you know, I don't believe in those things.

he can't say the truth

??

I think he's more or less saying that he doesn't believe in religion but he really, really, really doesn't want to be quoted on it!

Which is fair enough, I think. No matter what he says, he's going to get hammered by someone so better for him to not say what his religous beliefs (if any) are out loud.

esatto!

Katie, that's the same impression I've gotten over the years, he doesn't talk about it much, but when he does it's always the same vague way of answering.

I believe there is a misperception about the definition of agnostic. (and I have ho idea if George is one or not!) It is not someone who believes in God but not organized religion. It is, according to the dictionary:
"a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

Henway wrote:Did Talia and John get married in a Church, other wise I do not see religion taking play unless a priest married them.

As for Godparent, I am one but I am not Catholic. I was never asked by the priest if I was. I feel it should not matter what religion one is, as long as your there for any type of question the child may have. So when they are adults and chose to live there life under what ever religion they want they understand there is no wrong religion, only what is right for them. IMO

George and Talia were married in Las Vegas in a civil ceremony in 1989. They basically eloped.

eloped?!??!

it's me wrote:eloped?!??!

Eloped essentially means: Run away to get married. Not having a "big" wedding with all the frills. Could be getting married on the spur of the moment. Not wanting anyone to know until it is done. All those are possible definitions.

Whatever George's beliefs, if he expresses them it becomes a big to-do. If he says he doesn't believe in religion, he's damned in public. If he say he's Catholic (which he has, in the past), then he's damned by Catholics everywhere, because of his lifestyle choices (girlfriends and the obvious fact that he sleeps with them). So he's damned if he does believe, and damned if he doesn't. So he really just hems and haws, and hedges his bets. Would probably be better if he just said "I really don't want to discuss religion in any form".

I wouldn't know what to label myself. I truly believe in God but not the Catholic Church. I think God judges you on how you live your life, not how many times you go to church. God is everywhere, IMO

cindigirl wrote:I wouldn't know what to label myself. I truly believe in God but not the Catholic Church. I think God judges you on how you live your life, not how many times you go to church. God is everywhere, IMO

That's right, Cindi. God does judge us on how we live. There are too many denominations that really do not know how to interpret the Bible correctly.

MM, unfortunately it is true, that there is much misinterpretation of the Bible. It is also true that there too many denominations.
It would be wonderful if God gave "all" mankind the knowledge and wisdom to interpret His Word correctly and in the same context. Then it would only be necessary to have one denomination as all would have exactly the same beliefs. Maybe then we could even have a time of peace on earth.

Well said patty.

I'm sure there is a space saved in Heaven for our George in spite of his sexual proclivities.

cindigirl wrote:Well said patty.

I'm sure there is a space saved in Heaven for our George in spite of his sexual proclivities.

I would suspect it's because of them.

I'm sure there's a place for him. His good works far outshine his sexual appetite. I really don't think his place is saved because of his sexual proclivities, but definitely there is one. There is a place in "our heaven" for him because of them, and we'll all be waiting for him there.

"our heaven" sounds nice

I'll race ya girls. Bet I'll beat you!!

Remember, I'm older, probably be first in line.!

Not the way I live. Eat, drink, smoke and be happy! LOL

I'm pretty sure I'll be going in the other direction.

This brings to mind the letters to the seven churches. We’ve all run short of the glory, only through Christ can we achieve the goal. Without Christ we are doomed. And those of you that do not believe, I love you but, I will not apologize. This is what I believe and what I stand by. In the letter to the churches each church is wrong according to the gospel. That’s why Jesus was against the “Sadducees” and “Pharisees”. It was “organized” religion. It was organized to meet a man’s needs and not the needs of the people/soul. “Be on your guard against the *“yeast” of the “Pharisees” and “Sadducees”… then they understood… against the teaching of the “Pharisees” and “Sadducees”. ” ~Matt. 16:11-12 – this verse can be added to all organized “religion”. Believers must band together and understand that all are short. But as a body must move in the direction that is for the greater good. In other words… do not listen and believe what someone else tells you, get the Bible out and read it for yourself to see if it stands. If it stands with scripture, then believe, if it doesn’t then discuss it until the truth comes out. Scripture is God breathed… ever changing and God will provide the answer in His word. IMO

*Yeast makes “dough” rise up… yeast strengthens “dough”… yeast helps develop “gluten network”…
Isn’t that funny how “gluten network” is used? Maybe we should change it to glutton… and “dough” to cash… and “yeast” to yoke… just saying.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. ~Matt. 11:30