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News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

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News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by party animal - not! on Wed Apr 16 2014, 18:48


This from the BBC News Website



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David Stern's piece is very very sad. After all they've been trying to do. No wonder NATO's going to help now..........

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Mazy on Wed Apr 16 2014, 21:17

FROM PAN's LINK

Ukraine Crisis: Military Column 'Seized' In Kramatorsk
16 April 2014 Last updated at 13:24 ET


Ukrainian attack helicopters buzzed villagers in Kramatorsk, but the army eventually had to give up, as Daniel Sandford reports

Pro-Russian militants in eastern Ukraine have seized six Ukrainian armoured vehicles, the defence ministry in Kiev says.
Reports say the occupants were disarmed after the vehicles were blockaded by locals in the city of Kramatorsk.

The incident comes a day after the military began an operation to remove pro-Russian protesters from public buildings across eastern Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Nato is increasing activity in member states bordering Russia.

After Ukrainian forces recaptured an airfield outside Kramatorsk on Tuesday, armoured vehicles appeared in the centre of the town early on Wednesday.

BBC journalists witnessed civilians, at least some of whom appeared to be local people, challenging soldiers, who were also blocked by a crowd a few kilometres outside the town.
Analysis

Ukraine's "anti-terrorist" operation is looking more and more a non-event - or worse, an outright fiasco.
Kiev officials have admitted they have no time to lose to extinguish the growing insurrection in the country's east.
But the decision to send the army in has so far backfired terribly.

The soldiers have been helpless and obviously unhappy with being deployed against crowds of civilians.

Ukraine's new leaders are under a great amount of pressure - not just from the Kremlin and the pro-Russian activists, but from their own supporters, outraged at their government's inability to stem the separatist tide.

Right now, everything has been thrown into doubt - even the future of this government and of Ukraine itself.

The biggest question is what will follow.

One officer said he had not "come to fight" and would never obey orders to shoot his "own people".

"A column was blocked by a crowd of local people in Kramatorsk with members of a Russian diversionary-terrorist group among them," the defence ministry said its statement.

The military vehicles were then taken to Sloviansk where they are being held by "people in uniforms who have no relation to Ukraine's armed forces," the ministry said.

The Ukrainian troops appear to have been disarmed before being fed by pro-Russian militants at a cafe in Sloviansk and then put on a bus back to their home city of Dnipropetrovsk.

In another incident, several hundred residents of Pchyolkino, south of Sloviansk, surrounded another column of 14 Ukrainian military vehicles.
After the crowd was reinforced by pro-Russian gunmen, negotiations ensued and the troops were allowed to drive their vehicles away, but only after agreeing to surrender the magazines from their assault rifles.
Ukraine's "anti-terrorist" operation is looking more and more a non-event - or worse, an outright fiasco, reports the BBC's David Stern in Donetsk.

The episodes come amid increasing tension across eastern Ukraine, blamed by the Kiev government and the West on covert Russian intervention in the region - an allegation denied by Moscow.

The crisis escalated this month after pro-Russian rebels occupied buildings in about 10 towns and cities, demanding greater autonomy or referendums on secession.

The BBC's James Reynolds was on the scene as pro-Russian activists surrounded Ukrainian tanks

Tens of thousands of Russian soldiers are believed to have massed on Ukraine's borders since Russia took control of the Ukrainian region of Crimea last month, following a controversial referendum on self-determination.

As tensions rose, Ukraine's acting Defence Minister Mykhailo Koval headed for the east of the country to monitor the progress of the "anti-terrorist operation" announced by acting President Olexander Turchynov on Tuesday.

In the city of Donetsk, where activists have been occupying the regional government building since 6 April, pro-Russian gunmen have taken control of the mayor's office.

They told an AFP correspondent their only demand was for the region to stage a referendum on turning Ukraine into a federation with broader local rights.

Daniel Sandford in Sloviansk gets up close to a Ukrainian armoured vehicle which was "rebranded" with a Russian flag
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Gunmen can be seen inside the mayor's office in Donetsk

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Ukrainian soldiers were stopped by locals near the city of Kramatorsk
The defence ministry said the seized vehicles were then taken to the town of Sloviansk
'More planes'

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Meanwhile Nato announced it was beefing up its eastern members' defences.
In Brussels, Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen promised "more planes in the air, mores ships on the water, more readiness on the land".

He called on Russia to make clear it did not "support the violent actions of well-armed militias or pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine".

Analysis
Jonathan MarcusBBC diplomatic correspondent
Nato's announcement is about reassuring worried allies in the Baltic republics and central Europe, as well as signalling to Moscow that when it comes to the alliance's core business - the defence of its members' territory - Nato is as vigilant as ever.

Air patrols over the Baltic republics are to be stepped up; Nato warships will deploy to the eastern Mediterranean and the Baltic Sea.
And on land, staff officers will be dispatched to oversee an enhanced programme of exercises and preparedness in the countries most concerned.

Nato will also review and reinforce its defence plans. In the longer term additional deployments may well be made. Nato sources indicate that this is only the first step of several that could be taken if the relationship with Russia sours further.

The Nato alliance includes two ex-Soviet Baltic republics with large ethnic Russian communities, Latvia and Estonia, while other members such as Poland share borders with Russia.

Four-way talks are due to take place on Thursday in Geneva between diplomats from Russia, the EU, the US and Ukraine.
Ahead of the annexation of Crimea, masked soldiers believed to be Russian troops appeared at strategic points across the peninsula alongside "self-defence" units, said to have been formed locally.

Speaking in London, UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said Russia had sent "thinly disguised" armed groups into eastern Ukraine to spearhead the occupation of buildings.

Ukraine's Security Service (SBU) has meanwhile published what it says is a batch of intercepted conversations between the Russian secret services and pro-Russian forces in eastern Ukraine.

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen: ''We agreed on a package of further military measures to reinforce our collective defence''

Russian security service officers are heard to order forces in eastern Ukraine to "shoot to kill" when dealing with Ukrainian troops who do not surrender, according to the transcripts.

Counter-intelligence spokesman Vitaliy Naida told reporters the same Russian agents had been involved in the run-up to Russia's Crimea annexation.

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The intercepts could not be independently verified. Moscow maintains the pro-Russian protests in eastern Ukraine are the result of grassroots activism.

Are you in eastern Ukraine? What is the situation like where you are? You can email your experiences to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] using the subject line 'Eastern Ukraine'.
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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Nicky80 on Wed Apr 16 2014, 21:49

Saw that in the news today. They warning from civil war....Really thin line at moment what separates good outcome and bad outcome if I explain myself right.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Thu Apr 17 2014, 12:53

As long as Putin can get away with lying to the Russian people every day on their government controlled televisions, that the Ukraine has been taken over by Nazis, no less and as long as the rest of the world's leaders aren't willing to do whatever is necessary to stand up against this invasion, masquarding as protecting Russian speaking people populated outside of Russia, nothing will stop this insanity.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Mazy on Thu Apr 17 2014, 16:57

Well we know that things cannot remain the way that they are, au'gue some of them have to do something one way or another. Let me put it this way our governments need to get together and come up with a plan and do something.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Fri Apr 18 2014, 12:30

They have an oral agreement right now Mazy between our Secretary of State John Kerry and his Russian counterpart, can't remember his name to peacefully put an end to this.  

But Putin wants what he wants...and he will make peace when that has been accomplished, whatever his original goals were.  You're dealing with a man in the middle of a mid-life crisis....think about how he's been behaving the past few years, dumping the wife, shirtless and trying to show his virility, even poisoning adversaries.  Just because he's powerful, doesn't mean he isn't vulnerable and spinning out of control at the same time, which is why he's only listening to a few very close advisers who are also ex-KGB.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Fri Apr 18 2014, 13:10

HuffPost

Russia: Agreement On Steps To Calm Tensions In Ukraine

GENEVA (AP) — In a surprise accord, Ukraine and Russia agreed Thursday on tentative steps to halt violence and calm tensions along their shared border after more than a month of Cold War-style military posturing triggered by Moscow's annexation of Crimea.

Russia's pledge to refrain from further provocative actions drew support but also a measure of skepticism from President Barack Obama, who said at a news conference at the White House that the United States and its allies were prepared to ratchet up sanctions if Moscow doesn't fulfill its commitments.

"I don't think we can be sure of anything at this point," Obama said after Secretary of State John Kerry, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and diplomats from Ukraine and Europe sealed their agreement after hours of talks in Geneva.

The abruptly announced agreement, brokered by the West, provides no long-term guide for Ukraine's future nor any guarantee that the crisis in eastern Ukraine will abate. But it eases international pressure both on Moscow and nervous European Union nations that depend on Russia for their energy.

Reached after seven hours of negotiations, the deal requires all sides to refrain from violence, intimidation or provocative actions. It calls for disarming all illegally armed groups and returning to Ukrainian authorities control of buildings seized by pro-Russian separatists during protests.

Notably, though, it does not require Russia to withdraw an estimated 40,000 troops massed near the Ukrainian border. Nor does it call for direct talks between Russia and Ukraine.

The agreement says Kiev's plans to reform its constitution and transfer more power from the central government to regional authorities must be inclusive, transparent and accountable. It gives amnesty to protesters who comply with the demands, except those found guilty of committing capital crimes.

The negotiations came against the backdrop of the bloodiest episode to date in the clashes that pit the new government in Kiev against an eastern insurgency the West believes is backed by Moscow.

In the eastern Ukraine Black Sea port of Mariupol, authorities said three pro-Russian protesters were killed and 13 injured overnight Wednesday during an attempted raid on a Ukrainian National Guard base.

As for the agreement reached in Geneva, monitors with the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe will be tasked with helping Ukraine authorities and local communities comply with the requirements. Lavrov said the OSCE mission "should play a leading role" moving forward.

Kerry called the one-page agreement "a good day's work." But, anticipating Obama's remarks a few hours later, he stressed that if Russia does not abide by a pledge to de-escalate the crisis by the end of the upcoming Easter weekend, the West would have no choice but to impose new sanctions as initially planned.

In a further sign of impatience on the part of the Obama administration, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said the U.S. would send non-lethal assistance to Ukraine's military in light of what he called Russia's ongoing destabilizing actions in the country. The aid will include medical supplies, helmets, water purification units and power generators.

In remarks at his own news conference in Geneva, Kerry said, "It is important that these words are translated immediately into actions. None of us leaves here with a sense that the job is done because of words on a paper."

Lavrov said the agreement was the product of compromise by the two sides that as recently as a several weeks ago refused to speak, intensifying the crisis and ratcheting up East-West tensions to levels not seen since the Cold War.

"Most important is that all participants recognize the fact that Ukrainians should assume leadership and ownership of settlement of the crisis in all aspects, be that resolving the issue in all aspects," Lavrov said.

He repeated Moscow's statement that it does not intend to intervene militarily in Ukraine.

However, Russian President Vladimir Putin offered slightly less assuring words. He reserved the right to act to protect ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine, but said he hoped it wouldn't be necessary to send in troops to do so.

Ukraine Foreign Minister Andrii Deshchytsia called the agreement "a test for Russia to show that it is really willing to have stability in this region."

The U.S. and EU were prepared to broaden their list of Russian and Ukrainian officials and oligarchs whose assets and Western travel have been frozen if Thursday's talks hadn't shown movement.

Even more punishing sanctions against Moscow's energy and banking sectors have been threatened. The EU is Russia's biggest trading partner and oil and gas client, and it has been reluctant to push ahead with penalties that would undercut its own citizens.

The EU instead has chastised Russia for threatening to cut off gas deliveries to Ukraine — a route for pipelines to Europe.

In a letter Thursday, EU President Jose Manuel Barroso told Putin that Russia would risk its reputation as a reliable supplier should Ukraine's gas supplies be cut off. Moscow had threatened to end the deliveries to force Kiev to pay debts.

In Ukraine, meanwhile, the interior ministry described a mob in Mariupol of about 300 people armed with stun grenades and firebombs — following the pattern of battle-ready militia bearing sophisticated weapons that have been involved in seizing government offices in the country's eastern regions.

Ukraine also began stringent checks for Russian citizens seeking to enter the country, and Russian airline Aeroflot reported a ban on Russian men between the ages of 16 and 60 visiting except when traveling with family or to funerals of relatives.

In a four-hour nationally televised call-in show in Moscow, Putin insisted that Russian special forces were not fomenting unrest in Ukraine, as Kiev and the U.S. claim.

But Putin also seemed to keep the door open for Russia to recognize Ukraine's presidential election set for May 25, softening his previous demand that it must be postponed until the fall and preceded by a referendum on broader powers for the regions.

Ukraine has asked for military assistance from the U.S., a request that was believed to include lethal aid such as weapons and ammunition. Obama administration officials have said they were not actively considering lethal assistance for fear it could escalate an already tense situation.

The U.S. has already sent Ukraine other assistance, such as pre-packaged meals for its military.

In Brussels, NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said the military alliance would increase its presence in Eastern Europe, including flying more sorties over the Baltic region west of Ukraine and deploying allied warships to the Baltic Sea and the eastern Mediterranean. NATO's supreme commander in Europe, U.S. Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove, told reporters that ground forces also could be involved at some point, but he gave no details.

___

AP Diplomatic Writer Matthew Lee, National Security Writer Robert Burns and Special Correspondent David Espo in Washington contributed to this report.

___

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Mazy on Sat Apr 19 2014, 00:31

If Putin sticks to the agreement and starts to de-escalate the current situation that would be fantastic. All we can do is pray, thanks Lighterside for this article much appreciate it.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Sat Apr 19 2014, 11:59

It really depends upon the emotional state of Putin, Mazy...he's been acting very paranoid and difficult, if not impossible to deal with.  While they're trying to pen an agreement in Geneva, he's on national television rambling for 4 hours and calling the Ukraine the New Russia! 

Even the one world leader who always had a way of dealing with him effectively, Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany can't seem to get through to him.  She's thrown up her arms more than once and said he's acting out of control and can't seem to be reasoned with.

This comes down to the will of the EU because they have the most to lose at this point, due to the resources we were talking about in another thread.  Russia supplies so much of their energy that it makes it difficult. That's why Crimea was so important to Putin, the oil and gas pipelines go right through Crimea. The world has become a much smaller place, politically speaking!  Our resources and financing are very intertwined now and in some ways that's excellent but in this situation...not so much.  We lose the leverage we had of monetary sanctions being effective, if they have to worry about the EU backing down so they get their oil and gas supplies from Russia.  Very tricky!  Let's hope and pray that cooler heads prevail....

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Mazy on Sat Apr 19 2014, 18:54

He is starting to sound very erratically like Hitler that wanted the whole world. He sounds too full of himself and wants to create an empire. These type of leaders are scary. Maybe he will come to his senses.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Tue Apr 22 2014, 12:31

U.S. Warns That Russia Has 'Days, Not Weeks' To Comply With Ukraine Accord

HuffPost

By NEDRA PICKLER & JULIE PACE, Associated Press

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Russia has "days, not weeks" to abide by an international accord aimed at stemming the crisis in Ukraine, the top U.S. diplomat in Kiev warned Monday as Vice President Joe Biden launched a high-profile show of support for the pro-Western Ukrainian government. Russia in turn accused authorities in Kiev of flagrantly violating the pact and declared their actions would not stand.

Biden, the highest-ranking American official to visit Ukraine during its conflict with Russia, planned to meet with government officials in the capital of Kiev on Tuesday. The vice president also planned to announce new technical support to help the fledgling government with energy and economic reforms.

Biden's trip comes days after the U.S., Russia, Ukraine and Europe signed an agreement in Geneva calling for Moscow to use its influence to get pro-Russian forces to leave the numerous government buildings they now occupy in cites throughout eastern Ukraine. The U.S. asserted on Monday that publicly available photographs from Twitter and other media show that some of the troops in eastern Ukraine are Russian special forces, and the U.S. said the photos support its case that Moscow is using its military to stir unrest in Ukraine.

There was no way to immediately verify the photographs, which were either taken from the Internet or given to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe last week by Ukraine diplomats.

In Moscow, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov rejected charges that Moscow was behind the troubles in eastern Ukraine and failing to live up to the Geneva agreement.

"Before putting forth ultimatums to us, demanding fulfillment of something within two-three days or otherwise be threatened with sanctions, we would urgently call on our American partners to fully recognize responsibility for those whom they brought to power and whom they are trying to shield, closing their eyes to the outrages created by this regime and by the fighters on whom this regime leans," Lavrov told a news conference.

Words and actions by Ukrainian leaders are "absolutely unacceptable," he declared.

The U.S. has warned that it will quickly order new economic sanctions on Russian officials and entities if Moscow doesn't follow through on the provisions in last week's accord. Gregory Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, said it was still too early to tell whether the deal would succeed, but he added, "The ball is really in Moscow's court in terms of whether they're going to take this diplomatic off-ramp."

"There needs to be concrete results," Pyatt told reporters in Kiev. He said the U.S. would make a decision on whether the agreement is working in "days, not weeks."

While last week's agreement offered a glimmer of hope that the crisis in Ukraine could be resolved peacefully, the accord appears to be fragile at best. The armed pro-Russia groups have refused to leave their occupying positions in eastern Ukraine until the country's acting government resigns. And there was a burst of violence Sunday, with three people killed during a shootout at a checkpoint that was manned by pro-Russian troops.

Ukrainian and Russian officials each blamed the other for instigating the attack. The White House said it was still trying to determine who was responsible and had no independent verification of what transpired.

"Overall, we are concerned about the situation there, and we urge paramilitary groups throughout the eastern and southern parts of Ukraine to lay down their weapons and depart the buildings that they have occupied, as was called for in the accord signed in Geneva last week," White House spokesman Jay Carney said.

Even as officials sorted through this latest disturbance, the State Department sought to build a public case against Russia for the wider unrest. The photo images released Monday show militants brandishing Russian weapons and wearing uniforms similar to those worn by Russian forces. The militants look similar to the forces that moved into Crimea in March, ahead of a referendum there that resulted in the peninsula being annexed by Russia.

Secretary of State John Kerry and Lavrov spoke by telephone Monday but appeared to break little new ground. Russia's foreign ministry said Lavrov told Kerry that the Ukrainian government was unable and unwilling to stop what the Russians call extremists in eastern Ukraine.

Biden planned to meet Tuesday with government leaders who took over after pro-Russia Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted in February following months of protests. He will speak with Arseniy Yatsenyuk and Oleksandr Turchynov, the acting Ukrainian prime minister and president. The vice president is also scheduled to meet with legislators from across the country and democracy activists before returning to Washington Tuesday night.

He held a series of meetings Monday with U.S. Embassy officials, members of Congress also in Kiev for an update on the crisis and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's chief monitor in Ukraine.

A senior administration official told reporters onboard Air Force Two en route to Kiev that Biden planned to announce new technical support to the Ukrainian government to implement energy and economic reforms. The official, speaking on a condition of anonymity to allow Biden to publicly announce any agreements, said the vice president also will follow up on recent U.S. commitments of non-lethal security assistance and discuss what more Washington can offer to help.

Biden also planned to discuss preparations for next month's Ukrainian presidential election and the latest developments in eastern Ukraine, where insurgents are accusing leaders in Kiev of aiming to suppress the country's Russian speakers in the region.

The Obama administration official told reporters that the assistance Biden will announce includes technical expertise to increase production and boost energy efficiency to reduce reliance on oil imports from Russia. The economic help includes advice to make sure international funding is allocated effectively and that all parts of the country are benefiting.

___

Julie Pace reported from Washington. AP National Security Writer Lara Jakes in Washington and AP writer Jim Heintz in Moscow contributed to this report.

___

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Tue Apr 22 2014, 12:39

Photos Link Masked Men in East Ukraine to Russia

NYTimes

By ANDREW HIGGINS, MICHAEL R. GORDON and ANDREW E. KRAMER
APRIL 20, 2014

KIEV, Ukraine — For two weeks, the mysteriously well-armed, professional gunmen known as “green men” have seized Ukrainian government sites in town after town, igniting a brush fire of separatist unrest across eastern Ukraine. Strenuous denials from the Kremlin have closely followed each accusation by Ukrainian officials that the world was witnessing a stealthy invasion by Russian forces.

Now, photographs and descriptions from eastern Ukraine endorsed by the Obama administration on Sunday suggest that many of the green men are indeed Russian military and intelligence forces — equipped in the same fashion as Russian special operations troops involved in annexing the Crimea region in February. Some of the men photographed in Ukraine have been identified in other photos clearly taken among Russian troops in other settings.

And Ukraine’s state security service has identified one Russian reported to be active among the green men as Igor Ivanovich Strelkov, a Russian military intelligence operative in his mid- to late 50s. He is said to have a long résumé of undercover service with the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian general staff, most recently in Crimea in February and March and now in and around the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk.

“There has been broad unity in the international community about the connection between Russia and some of the armed militants in eastern Ukraine, and the photos presented by the Ukrainians last week only further confirm this, which is why U.S. officials have continued to make that case,” Jen Psaki, the State Department spokeswoman, said Sunday.

The question of Russia’s role in eastern Ukraine has a critical bearing on the agreement reached Thursday in Geneva among Russian, Ukrainian, American and European diplomats to ease the crisis. American officials have said that Russia would be held responsible for ensuring that the Ukrainian government buildings were vacated, and that it could face new sanctions if the terms were not met.

Note: There are pictures below the article at the link above for NYTimes that show the insignias of the Russian troups as well as photos identifying certain known Russian officers among the armed gunmen.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Nicky80 on Tue Apr 22 2014, 13:25

It looks like Russia gets away with it and I hope not.... but if Russia gets they way and split Ukraine in two part then I have no words anymore for the West. Makes me really angry that Russia can play this game for so long now and I get the feeling Russia is getting stronger to win the East part Ukraine....But I hope I'm wrong...

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Tue Apr 22 2014, 15:33

There is no desire to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine and Putin knows it.  It's been rumored that it's quite possible that highly classified information supplied to Putin by Edward Snowden is what fueled this latest attempt at invading his neighbors, which were part of the former Soviet Union.  I would love to know how any apologists can continue to defend Snowden, whose actions are closer to a traitor's than a patriot. Snowden lent credibility to Putin's 4 hour rant on television the other day by participating as a caller/questioner. 

Patriots don't run to or give credibility/comfort/information to the enemy.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Nicky80 on Tue Apr 22 2014, 20:55

Yes agree, if Snowden wanted to change something in his country he could have find a different way and not betrayal it and hiding in Russia. If you fight for a change you are not running form something you like to change you stay your ground to change it. (If I make sense).
And as you mentioned above Snowden was part of Putin's television show to ask him questions and I think it shows clearly that Snowden is now Putins little puppet. Snowden is not free in his will anymore and the Russians make sure of that. That's why Snowden is desperately trying to get political asylum in Germany. He wrote several letters and a video message to Angela Merkel. But he will not get it. Angela Merkel/Germany has good relationship to the US so this is a dead end. 

But you could be right that Putin is doing that because of all the information he got from Snowden. I know there will be no war to rescue the Ukraine. Same like East Germany many years ago. We slowly watch how Putin wins his game....Very sad...But how is the saying. What goes around comes around....something like that.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Mazy on Wed Apr 23 2014, 00:48

Thanks you Lighterside for these article you are on the ball today. Nice work and thanks again.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Lighterside on Wed Apr 23 2014, 12:10

Thanks Mazy


@Nicky...always look at "the fruit" of one's actions to see what they're really up to.  People say all kinds of pretty words to persuade others that what they are doing is the right thing to do but look at the results of their actions and you'll see the person's true motives, more often than not.  

A whistleblower stands their ground and pursues the truth, for truths' sake and to make the world a better, safer place to be; cowards and traitors run and hide and then try to defend their actions from afar.  He knows he caused countless people their jobs by lying to them and getting their password information so he could steal whatever he wanted, which is what he's done.   Then he left those people to face the charges and lose their jobs and possibly their freedom, when they had no idea what he was up to or how he was going to use the information they gave him access to.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Katiedot on Wed Apr 23 2014, 13:09

Nicky80 wrote:Yes agree, if Snowden wanted to change something in his country he could have find a different way and not betrayal it and hiding in Russia. If you fight for a change you are not running form something you like to change you stay your ground to change it. (If I make sense).
Just to play devil's advocate here, what happens when you know you CAN'T stand your ground to change your country? Snowdon had very good reason to believe that had he stayed in the US, he'd be 'disappeared' by now. And the information that he needed to share with the world would be gone with him.

The US was humiliated by the public revelation of its activities and we haven't even begun to find out all of the information he's got. I think we're going to find out about a lot of unethical and illegal activities undertaken by the US and IMO there's no way he could have stayed in the country and released this.

The US are desperate to smear his name in a last-ditch effort to discredit him and by association the information he's got. There was an interesting article (in the Mail of places!) about a British surgeon who 'whistleblowed' on the hospital he worked at and had his life ruined. The hospital even got coworkers to make serious allegations against him and although he's been cleared, he'll never work again. This is just for one doctor standing up to one hospital. What kind of treatment do you think one man standing up to a government is going to get? A fair trial? Not a chance.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Nicky80 on Wed Apr 23 2014, 19:44

I don't think he'd be disparaged by now. Remember the other American soldier he published his information through wikileads and stayed in the country. He didn't disappear but now he is for life in prison. 
Nelson Mandela was in prison for a long time as well before people called him a hero...Before he was called a terrorist. 

The US got maybe humiliated by the public and as we saw the response from the US government. They really give a "shit". Our Government was not really happy about the the US spied on our chancellor but until today nobody really found a solution and even though our Chancellor requested her file with the NSA the US declined. Because they don't care. 

The US feel they have done nothing wrong as other countries do it too. The only bad luck the US had was too many traitors at once who told everyone.....

Did everything change? Don't think so....The questions is did Snowdon really wanted to change something or just share what he knows to damage someone that would explain why he is hiding. And then again he is hiding in a country which is known for they Human rights problem. So how does this make sense hiding from the US as Snowdon feels they are now the bad guys but feeling safe in Russia which is known for they human right problem....So now Russia are the good once.....? 

I think Snowdon is not out for good or you would not help Russia.

And with regards to the hospital example...yes if you fight against big power no one is putting out the red carpet for you. Ask Martin Luther King....If you fight something you always have to be prepared to loose even though you think you are right.  

Fair trial today is rare anyway...What is fair today...yes maybe Snowdon would have gotten a not fair treatment...but is his treatment to the American people fair? Or is it fair to tell the world the US has done something bad but look at me I'm in Russia who are always nice to everyone??? 

The way I like to put it

Snowdon did something bad (betrayal) to out somebody else as bad (USA) and then hiding at a bad place (Russia)....so everyone is bad kind off.

I guess we only will know in many many many years to find the end result of all that......

As George once said only in years we will know if he was a hero or just a traitors....

Having said now my opinion, talking about politics...I'm ready...take off my head  Razz  Razz  Razz ...... affraid  affraid  affraid

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Carla97 on Thu Apr 24 2014, 14:45

News from Ukraine today weren´t good at all.

I heard (not myself, but I was told) putin has called Ukraine "Novorossiya". If that is true, he kind of mentally thinks so. Only thing left is to claim it. Hard to substitute negative destructive goals any positive thinking. I concur.

So it looks, at least to me, that east & south Ukraine will be Russian, possibly whole country (if he dares, and it´s starting to look like he does). Not raving in hysteria here, but it will happen. I wouldn´t be surprised if current president and PM and rest of the government fled to west any given day now...understandably. Troops and militaire that went to crimea, were nice boys (chatting with locals, having pictures taken, zero dead...) Same can´t be said about the ones that will go to Kiev. Prob 58th army.

Maybe I´m wrong, maybe "diplomatic solution" is still an option. If not reached in Geneva, maybe in some other city then. I just do not see it happening.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Apr 24 2014, 19:48

Google translation

Propaganda war in Ukraine : The Kremlin lies better

Washington's purported evidence of a presence of Russian troops in eastern Ukraine are not worth the paper on which the White House has the photos printed. The recordings were released on Tuesday , they suggested that the uniformed men in eastern Ukraine , " Russian military and security forces are actually " , so reported the " New York Times " . Washington see now been confirmed in his view that Russia steer the uprising , said spokeswoman Jenifer Psaki .

This is the position that Washington and Kiev represented for weeks : In the eastern Ukraine , therefore operating units in the Russian military, and Putin's secret service. This suggests also that the separatists have no support among the population , and only Russia foments the rebellion. There were a covert invasion of Moscow's units - similar to previously in the Crimea.

The truth is more complicated. In contrast to the extremely taciturn Russian marines in the Crimea , the Washington allegedly unmasked Russian agent turned out to be very talkative . A team of U.S. magazine "Time" has tracked him down in the contested city Slowjansk . To identify him clearly posed no major difficulty is the guy is wearing a - for Russian secret agents rather unusual - Beard on display which was why friends and foes call in Slowjansk only as " the bearded ones " .

The man's name is Moschajew and has reporters willingly tells his story . The journalists have confronted him with the photos of the State Department , an allegedly caused during an alleged use Moschajews in Georgia war in 2008, it shows a man with similar zauseligem beard. Moschajew says the photos flattered him that he had but never been to Georgia. Yes, he 's Russian , but he had volunteered , along with other Cossacks from Southern Russia , militant nationalists.

"Not a soldier of the Russian Federation holds on the territory of Slowjansk on ," says the leader of the separatists , the self-proclaimed " People's Mayor " Vyacheslav Ponomarev .

This does not agree , in fact it would be surprising if the Russian intelligence had no agents in use in the Donbass . Much also for the Moscow riots actually fired speaks . At least , Moscow does nothing to stop the influx of combat-ready volunteer as Moschajew . But the evidence for Russia's influence on the conflict so far range for a maximum circumstantial evidence , evidence are not.

In early April accused the new head of the secret service SBU and the new Minister of the Interior of the Russian secret service FSB , to be responsible for the fatal shootings on the Maidan . The only authority for the proposition was the presence of a FSB delegation on a base of the Ukrainian secret service at that time.

With facts, it takes Kiev not as accurate

Interior Minister arsenic Awakow also accused the pro-Russian minded mayor of Kharkiv Gennady core, he had rushed thugs on opposition supporters . When asked by a journalist if he could substantiate the allegations with hard evidence as intercepted phone evaded the Minister . The mayor and the leader of the club are obvious and known each other for years , the public should it " just pull only the right conclusions ."

it figures it takes Kiev sometimes not as accurate . As a Ukrainian journalist published photos of a unit of the Ukrainian army, which had defected along with their armored vehicles to the rebels , the government immediately denied : if it were in fact a " military list" . The unit should advance under the Russian flag and then overwhelm the separatists.
When nothing came of Kiev called the shots of Ukrainian tanks with Russian tricolor as photomontage. Later, the message made ​​the rounds , the unit had become overwhelmed by pro-Russian forces. Indeed, Kiev anti-terror forces had surrendered willingly.

The Kremlin also operates propaganda

The photographer Maxim Dondyuk has long been a Ukrainian few reporters on the spot. He reported early on that in Slowjansk no Russian troops in command , but local irregulars and volunteers from Russia. "I wanted to dispel the myth that here Russian special forces are at work ," says Dondyuk . "Unfortunately, the Ukrainian media have twisted everything."

Dondyuk published on the internet photos of fighters , one wearing the characteristic fur hat Russian Cossacks. Television channels and Internet media as the " Ukrainska Pravda" spread the photo further , but gave him a completely different spin. "You have suddenly claimed that I would have a unit of soldiers tracked from the Russian Caucasus ," says Dondyuk . Ukrainian media " differ have been whittled away by the Russian propaganda that has reported weeks lies about the Maidan" .

Of course, Moscow continues to operate propaganda in the conflict. They allege Russian television stations for days , in truth CIA Director John Brennan had been personally in Kiev the command to attack Ukrainian army units , he had entered under a different name in the Ukraine. This seemed like a figment of Russian conspiracy theorists until the CIA had contritely admit that Brennan had actually visited Kiev , but only for a routine visit and not incognito . But the statement came too late and hesitant. In the minds of many citizens, especially the question remained hanging : What the hell is the CIA station chief doing in Kiev?

Unlike Kiev and its allies , Moscow has mastered the art of propaganda.

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Re: News from Ukraine Today - It's bleak..........

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