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The Serious Side - part 2

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 19:54

Pan when Ivanka gets back there will pictures of her with the kids, they seem to have bought a home that is pretty much in the public view and every time they go somewhere you can count on the fail to have pictures.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by party animal - not! on Sun 09 Jul 2017, 16:30

I think some of you will really endorse this important journalist saying it exactly how it is:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/biggest-threat-to-the-west-australian-journalist-demolishes-trump-after-g20

















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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Sun 09 Jul 2017, 16:48

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4679444/Trump-claims-strongly-pressed-Putin-hacking.html

[size=34]Trump reveals plans to create an 'impenetrable cyber security unit' WITH Russia to protect US elections from hacking in future after friendly handshake meeting with Putin at the G20 summit[/size]

  • The president fired off a series of tweets about his meeting with Putin at the G20 

  • 'I strongly pressed President Putin twice about Russian meddling in our election. He vehemently denied it. I've already given my opinion,' Trump wrote on Sunday

  • He also said the US will forma  'cyber security unit' with Russia to fight hacking 

  • Trump then started attacking the DNC and Obama for not stopping interference

  • 'Why did Obama do NOTHING when he had info before election?' he tweeted

  • The claim Obama did nothing is factually true, but it is often made by Trump 

  • President later said he did not discuss new sanctions over the election hacking


By LIAM QUINN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 09:18 EDT, 9 July 2017 | UPDATED: 11:19 EDT, 9 July 2017

    


Donald Trump has revealed US plans to form an 'impenetrable cyber security unit' with Russia, before again blaming Barack Obama for not stopping the Russian interference.
Trump fired up his Twitter account on Sunday morning and sent out a series of statements about his meeting with Putin at the G20 summit in Hamburg, Germany, this week. 
The president's first tweet focused on what he claims are 'bad trade deals' with Europe, before turning his attention to the Russian election hacking.
'I strongly pressed President Putin twice about Russian meddling in our election. He vehemently denied it. I've already given my opinion.....,' he wrote, running out of characters mid-sentence.
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Donald Trump claimed on Twitter he confronted Vladimir Putin over Russia's interference in the 2016 election at the G20 summit. Trump and Putin are pictured laughing
'...We negotiated a ceasefire in parts of Syria which will save lives. Now it is time to move forward in working constructively with Russia!
'Putin & I discussed forming an impenetrable Cyber Security unit so that election hacking, & many other negative things, will be guarded.. ... and safe.'
The cyber plan was almost immediately attacked, with Florida Republican Marco Rubio blasting the proposal. 
'Partnering with Putin on a "Cyber Security Unit" is akin to partnering with Assad on a "Chemical Weapons Unit",' Rubio wrote.
'We have no quarrel with Russia or the Russian people. Problem is with Putin & his oppression, war crimes & interference in our elections.' 
Democrat Adam Schiff also trashed the plan, speaking with CNN on Sunday morning.
'How can we really believe the president pressed Putin hard, when only the day before he was denying whether we really knew Russia was responsible?' Schiff said.
'What kind of a tough negotiator, the way the president likes to portray himself, goes into a negotiation betraying his own position the day before? Calling into question the probity of his own intelligence agencies, that just doesn't make any sense.
'Then to say, "OK it's been resolved now we can move on", I don't think we can move on. I don't think we can expect the Russians to be any kind of a credible partner in some cyber security unit, I think that would be dangerously naive for this country if that's our best election defense, we might as well just mail our ballot boxes to Moscow.'
Meanwhile, Trump, as he is wont to do, was then directing his Twitter bile towards the Democrats and President Obama.
'Questions were asked about why the CIA & FBI had to ask the DNC 13 times for their SERVER, and were rejected, still don't....,' he wrote.
'...have it. Fake News said 17 intel agencies when actually 4 (had to apologize). Why did Obama do NOTHING when he had info before election?'

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'I strongly pressed President Putin twice about Russian meddling in our election. He vehemently denied it. I've already given my opinion,' Trump wrote on Twitter Sunday morning


















Donald Trump discussed his meeting with Putin, attacked the DNC and President Obama, called out 'fake news', and said Russia will not face new sanctions - all in the space of six tweets
The president's claim about President Obama not doing anything is not true, as it has previously been revealed Obama spoke to Putin about the hacking in September, and he worked in the final few months leading up to the election to ensure no voting systems could be hacked. 
Democrats have also spoken about why Obama did not do more, with Al Franken telling MSNBC's Morning Joe last month the former President and his team: 'didn't want to look like they were putting a thumb on the scale and that's why they didn't do more'. 
Trump's claim about the four intelligence agencies is also factually incorrect, as six chiefs - DIA Director General Vincent Stewart, NSA Director Michael Rogers, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, CIA Director Mike Pompeo, acting FBI Director Andrew McCabe, and National Geospatial-Intelligence Director Robert Cardillo - all said 'Russian intelligence agencies' were behind the election hacking, CNN reports. 
A few minutes later on Sunday morning, Trump revealed he did not discuss potential punishments for Russia's meddling in the election. 
'Sanctions were not discussed at my meeting with President Putin. Nothing will be done until the Ukrainian & Syrian problems are solved!' he wrote.
The tweets come after it was revealed members of his team - including Donald Trump Jr and Jared Kushner - met with a Kremlin lawyer at Trump Tower just two weeks after he won the Republican nomination last year.


[size=18]Trump pressed Putin on election interference: Tillerson at G20

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Putin and Donald Trump are pictured during a bilateral meeting on the sidelines of the G20 summit in Hamburg on July 7


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Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump shake hands during their meeting at the G20 summit in Germany this meet


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Trump then accused President Barack Obama of not stopping Putin from hacking the election. Obama is pictured meeting with Putin during a G20 meeting in September 2016

The Trump Tower meeting, which took place on June 9, 2016 and has never before been disclosed, was attended by then-campaign chairman Paul Manafort, Kushner, and Don Jr - who is accused of organizing the meeting, the New York Times reports.
This is the first confirmed meeting between Trump associates and figures tied to the Russian government, according to the Times, which cited confidential government records.
'It was a short introductory meeting,' Trump Jr told the Times. The newspaper identified the Russian attorney as Natalia Veselnitskaya.
The wife of a former deputy transportation minister, Veselnitskaya is best known for her public attacks on American sanctions legislation aimed at Russian human rights abusers.
The Magnitsky Act imposed visa bans and asset freezes on Russian officials linked to the 2009 death in prison of Sergei Magnitsky, a 37-year-old Russian whistleblower.
Russia has demanded that the US repeal the legislation since its passage in 2012.

[size=18]Putin says Trump was 'satisfied' with his election meddling denials




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French President Emmanuel Macron smiles during the G20 summit in Germany while Donald Trump frowns


Read more:


  • Jim Acosta on Twitter: "At May 11 hearing Warner asked 6 intel agency heads for a simple yes or no answer. Here are their responses. https://t.co/BAxRx2pbJi"

  • Trump Team Met With Lawyer Linked to Kremlin During Campaign - The New York Times

  • Franken: This Health Bill Is Worse Than Mean; It's Cruel | Morning Joe | MSNBC - YouTube

  • CNN on Twitter: ""How can we really believe that the President pushed Putin hard?" says @RepAdamSchiff #CNNSOTU https://t.co/t1NIurJmI1"




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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Sun 09 Jul 2017, 16:55

Well, that's like letting the fox guard the hen house . The only one's who won't be able to penetrate it will be the U.S Trump is the biggest fool I have ever seen.

Well, we know how he plans to win the next election.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 04:02

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4679850/Republicans-deride-Trumps-idea-cyber-security-unit-Russia.html

[size=34]Now Trump walks back his 'impenetrable' joint US-Russia cyber security unit after Republicans ridicule his 'dumb' idea[/size]

  • President Donald Trump walked back a proposed cyber security unit with Russia

  • Trump's idea for US-Russia team to combat hacking met with derision from GOP

  • 'The fact that I discussed it with Putin doesn't mean I think it can happen,' Trump tweeted on Sunday 

  • Three Republican senators - Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, John McCain of Arizona and Marco Rubio of Florida - blasted the idea 


By ARIEL ZILBER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM and REUTERS
PUBLISHED: 13:37 EDT, 9 July 2017 | UPDATED: 22:38 EDT, 9 July 2017

    
President Donald Trump backtracked late Sunday on his widely panned proposal to team up with Russia's Vladimir Putin in forming a cyber security unit that would combat hacking.
In a tweet that he posted just before 6pm Eastern time, Trump acknowledged that the idea of a joint US-Russia cyber security team was far-fetched, though he did tout a ceasefire in Syria that he says resulted from his meeting with Putin in Hamburg on Friday. 
'The fact that President Putin and I discussed a Cyber Security unit doesn't mean I think it can happen,' Trump tweeted. 
'It can't - but a ceasefire can, and did!' the president tweeted. 
Trump's idea was harshly criticized by Republicans who said Moscow could not be trusted after its alleged meddling in the 2016 US election.


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President Donald Trump (seen above after he arrived at the White House on Saturday) backtracked late Sunday on his widely panned proposal to team up with Russia's Vladimir Putin in forming a cyber security unit that would combat hacking


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Tweeting after his first meeting with Putin on Friday, Trump said now was the time to work constructively with Moscow, pointing to a ceasefire deal in southwest Syria that came into effect on Sunday.
'Putin and I discussed forming an impenetrable Cyber Security unit so that election hacking, and many other negative things, will be guarded and safe,' he said following their talks at a summit of the Group of 20 nations in Hamburg, Germany.

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Three Republican senators - Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, John McCain of Arizona and Marco Rubio of Florida - blasted the idea.
'It's not the dumbest idea I have ever heard but it's pretty close,' Graham told NBC's Meet the Press program, saying that Trump's apparent willingness to 'forgive and forget' stiffened his resolve to pass legislation imposing sanctions on Russia. 


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Trump claimed on Twitter he confronted Putin over Russia's interference in the 2016 election at the G20 summit during their meeting in Hamburg on Friday

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'There has been no penalty,' McCain, who chairs the Senate armed services committee, told CBS' Face the Nation. 
'Vladimir Putin ... got away with literally trying to change the outcome ... of our election.
'Yes, it's time to move forward. But there has to be a price to pay,' he added.
Rubio, on Twitter, said: 'Partnering with Putin on a "Cyber Security Unit" is akin to partnering with (Syrian President Bashar al) Assad on a "Chemical Weapons Unit".'
Trump argued for rapprochement with Moscow in his campaign but has been unable to deliver because his administration has been dogged by investigations into the allegations of Russian interference in the election and ties with his campaign.
Special Counsel Robert Mueller is investigating the matter, including whether there may have been any collusion on the part of Trump campaign officials, as are congressional committees including both the House and Senate intelligence panels.
Those probes are focused almost exclusively on Moscow´s actions, lawmakers and intelligence officials say, and no evidence has surfaced publicly implicating other countries despite Trump's suggestion that others could have been involved.


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'I strongly pressed President Putin twice about Russian meddling in our election. He vehemently denied it. I've already given my opinion,' Trump wrote on Twitter Sunday morning























Trump discussed his meeting with Putin, attacked the DNC and President Obama, called out 'fake news', and said Russia will not face new sanctions - all in the space of six tweets




Trump returned to Twitter on Sunday afternoon to talk-up the ceasefire in Syria, which was reached after weeks of negotiations between the US, Russia, and Jordan

Moscow has denied any interference, and Trump says his campaign did not collude with Russia.
Representative Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, told CNN's State of the Union program Russia could not be a credible partner in a cyber security unit.
'If that´s our best election defense, we might as well just mail our ballot boxes to Moscow,' Schiff added.
Separately, US government officials said that a recent hack into business systems of US nuclear power and other energy companies was carried out by Russian government hackers, The Washington Post reported on Saturday.
Trump said he 'strongly pressed President Putin twice about Russian meddling in our election. He vehemently denied it.'
He added: 'We negotiated a ceasefire in parts of Syria which will save lives. Now it is time to move forward in working constructively with Russia!'
In Trump's first attempt at ending the six-year Syrian civil war, the United States, Russia and Jordan on Friday reached a ceasefire and 'de-escalation agreement' for southwestern Syria. 
The ceasefire was holding hours after it took effect on Sunday, a monitor and two rebel officials said. 


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Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said President Trump's idea to form a 'cyber security unit' with the Russians to prevent future hacking was 'pretty close' to the dumbest idea ever 


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Meet the Press host Chuck Todd (left) queried Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C. (right), on President Trump's latest tweets about Russia 


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Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., was among the Republicans who smacked down President Trump's idea


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Sens. John McCain (left) and Marco Rubio (right) gave sarcastic responses to President Trump's idea that the Russians would be a good partner on cyber security
In another tweet, Trump contradicted his Secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, by saying 'sanctions were not discussed at my meeting with President Putin. Nothing will be done until the Ukrainian and Syrian problems are solved!'
The United States has imposed sanctions on Russia for its 2014 annexation of Crimea from Ukraine.
Tillerson on Friday told reporters Trump had told Putin US lawmakers were pushing for additional sanctions against Russia.
The Senate has passed legislation which would put into law sanctions, including on mining and other industries, previously established via former President Barack Obama's executive orders. 
The bill must pass the House of Representatives before it could go to the White House for Trump's signature or veto.
McCain criticized Tillerson for having said about Syria, 'by and large, our (US and Russian) objectives are exactly the same. How we get there, we each have a view. Maybe they have got the right approach and we have got the wrong approach.'
Russia, and Iran, have backed keeping Assad in power. 
Trump, like his predecessor Barack Obama, has focused on fighting Islamic State, leaving for later the question of Assad's fate.
'The Russians knew that Bashar al-Assad was going to use chemical weapons. And to say that maybe we have got the wrong approach?' McCain said. 
Asked if he regretted voting for Tillerson as secretary of state, he replied: 'Sometimes I do.'

[size=18]Putin says Trump was 'satisfied' with his election meddling denials




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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by party animal - not! on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 09:22

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/7/8/1678934/-Republican-Lawmakers-Move-to-Cash-in-On-Their-Health-Care-Repeal-Buying-Up-Stock-in-Insurance-Cos

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 04:47

Ahhh PAN. A new low to behold by the spineless Republican Congress.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 19:02

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

[size=34]‘I love it’: Don Jnr forced to reveal email chain with shadowy British PR that shows he leaped at offer of Russian 'official documents incriminating Hillary' - which lawyer failed to produce at meeting[/size]

  • An explosive email chain reveals the terms on which Donald Trump Jr met with a Russian lawyer about dirt on Hillary Clinton

  • The email from PR exec Robert Goldstone explicitly mentions Russian 'government' support for his father's campaign

  • It offers information that would 'incriminate' rival Hillary Clinton with information about her Russia dealings

  • Days later, the president's son, son-in-law Jared Kushner, and campaign chair Paul Manafort met a Russian lawyer at Trump Tower 

  • 'I love it' 

  • 'This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump' 

  • In her first interview, Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya denied working for the Russian government 

  • She did, however, confirm that she attended a meeting with Trump Jr, Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort

  • Speaking to NBC News, Veselnitskaya suggested they were the ones pursuing damaging information on Hillary Clinton 

  • 'I never had any damaging or sensitive information about Hillary Clinton. It was never my intention to have that,'  Veselnitskaya said 

  • The dollar fell against major currencies after Trump Jr released the email chain 


By GEOFF EARLE, DEPUTY U.S. POLITICAL EDITOR FOR DAILYMAIL.COM and NIKKI SCHWAB, U.S. POLITICAL REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM and LIAM QUINN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 11:33 EDT, 11 July 2017 | UPDATED: 13:30 EDT, 11 July 2017


        
  • Donald Trump Jr. laid out the welcome mat when a shadowy public relations exec sent him an email offering information about Hillary Clinton and mentioned Russian government support for his father, new bombshell emails reveal.

The June 3 email offering potential dirt, penned by British PR exec Robert Goldstone, explicitly stated that the info was part of Russian support for Donald Trump's presidential campaign, for which Trump's eldest son was a trusted advisor and surrogate.
'This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump,' according to one of the emails, which were obtained by the New York Times, then posted by Donald Trump Jr for what he said for the sake of of 'transparency.'
The email claimed that the information 'would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.'


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'I love it,' Donald Trump responded when offered information about Hillary Clinton in an email that mentioned Russian government support for his father
The claims of juicy information by way of Moscow appeared to enthrall the president's eldest son, according to the email.
'If it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer,' the president's son responded, referencing the high-impact portion of the campaign when voters tend to focus on the election. 
Days later, Goldstone wrote back to arrange a meeting with a Russian government attorney, Natalia Veselnitskaya.

PR exec Goldstone's email to Don, Jr: 


'This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.'

The meeting occurred on June 9 of 2016. The president's son wrote that he would be bringing 'Paul Manafort (campaign boss)' and 'my brother-in-law' – Jared Kushner. The trio represented some of the most high-powered influence within the Trump campaign.
All three reportedly attended the meeting.  
'What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?' according to the email chain posted by Trump Jr. 
Goldstone then offered: 'I can also send this info to your father via Rhona [Trump's personal assistant], but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.'
According to the email chain Trump, Jr posted, he replied in full: 'Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it’s what you say I live it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?' 
Donald Trump Jr has denied getting any useful information out of the meeting, saying the information pertaining to alleged funding by Russians of Democrats made 'no sense,' although he has acknowledged that the meeting got arranged after an offer of information about Hillary Clinton. 
His initial statement about the meeting Saturday when it was first reported did not mention that it was called to discuss dirt on Clinton. 


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Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya confirmed her meeting with Donald Trump Jr, Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort to NBC News 


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Vanessa Trump is photographed leaving her home in New York closely followed by her security service detail. She walked three blocks to get into another secret service vehicle

Pop singer Emin cited as source of information


'Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting. The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.' 
'What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?'
Source: New York Times 
 

The Russian lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, who Trump Jr and other Trump campaign associates met with last June, suggested they were the ones who were looking for damaging information on Hillary Clinton.
'I never had any damaging or sensitive information about Hillary Clinton. It was never my intention to have that,' she toldNBC News' Today show. 'It's quite possible that maybe they were looking for such information, they wanted it so badly.' 
Asked if she had worked for the Russian government, she denied it. 'Nyet,' she said. 
She confirmed the participants of the meeting when asked about the 'purpose' of the Trump Tower get-together by NBC's Keir Simmons.
Goldstone has done work for British tabloids and was a journalist before become a PR executive. According to his profile, the Manchester-born PR exec has done work for Michael Jackson, BB King, and billionaire Richard Branson. He says he toured extensively with the king of pop during his 'Bad' tour of Australia. 


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Miss Connecticut USA Erin Brady and Donald Trump look on as Russian singer Emin Agalarov speaks onstage during a news conference after Brady won the 2013 Miss USA pageant at PH Live at Planet Hollywood Resort & Casino on June 16, 2013 in Las Vegas, Nevada
Scroll down for video 


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In her first exclusive interview, the woman at the center of the storm - Russian attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya - said she wasn't working for the Russian government 


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Sitting down with NBC News' Keir Simmons (left), Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya (right) said she never had any damaging information about Hillary Clinton to provide the Trump campaign


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Donald Trump Jr met with Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower last June, just two weeks after his father wrapped up the Republican nomination 
Goldstone wrote in the email that he was reaching out on behalf of Emin Agalarov, and Azerbaijan-born pop star who once cut a music video featuring Miss Universe contestants that concluded with an appearance by Donald Trump.
Emin is the son of real estate tycoon Aras Agalarov, who worked with the senior Trump on an unrealized effort to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. 
'I never knew who else would be attending the meeting. All I knew was Donald Trump Jr was willing to meet with me,' she said. 
The Trump son, the Russian lawyer explained, only asked her one question.  
'The question that I was asked was as follows: whether I had any financial records which might prove that the funds used to sponsor the DNC were coming from inappropriate sources,' she told NBC. 


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The emails to Trump Jr came from PR exec Robert Goldstone. He claimed to have learned from pop musician Emin, whom he represents, that a Russian prosecutor provided information about Clinton to Emin's father

[size=34]Donald Trump, Jr's statement on release of email chain [/size]


To everyone, in order to be totally transparent, I am releasing the entire email chain of my emails with Rob Goldstone about the meeting on June 9, 2016. The first email on June 3, 2016 was from Rob, who was relating a request from Emin, a person I knew from the 2013 Ms. Universe Pageant near Moscow. Emin and his father have a very highly respected company in Moscow. The information they suggested they had about Hillary Clinton I thought was Political Opposition Research. I first wanted to just have a phone call but when that didn’t work out, they said the woman would be in New York and asked if I would meet. I decided to take the meeting. The woman, as she has said publicly, was not a government official. And, as we have said, she had no information to provide and wanted to talk about adoption policy and the Magnitsky Act. To put this in context, this occurred before the current Russian fever was in vogue. As Rob Goldstone said just today in the press, the entire meeting was “the most inane nonsense I ever heard. And I was actually agitated by it.” 

 Veselnitskaya said she replied that had no such records adding 'it was never my intention to collect any financial records to that end.' 
She also confirmed that President Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner and his campaign chairman Paul Manafort were in the room.  

'I could recognize the young gentleman who was only present in the meeting for only the first seven to 10 minutes and then stood up and left the room. It was Jared Kushner,' she continued. 'And he never came back, by the way.' 
'And the other individual who was at the same meeting, was always looking at his phone. he was reading something he never took any active part in the conversation,' she aded. 'That was Mr. Manafort.' 
As the media he rips as 'fake news' went into overdrive over the story, Donald Trump, Jr played down the importance of the meeting and emails in a statement he posted on Twitter.
'The woman, as she has said publicly, was not a government official,' he wrote. 'And, as we have said, she had no information to provide and wanted to talk about adoption policy and the Magnitsky Act. To put this in context, this occurred before the current Russian fever was in vogue.'
Last night the New York Times revealed that Trump Jr was allegedly told before his meeting with Veselnitskaya that the 'Russian government was the source of the potentially damaging information' in an email from British PR guru Rob Goldstone.  

The newspaper's account is based on conversations with 'three people with knowledge' of what it contained. 




It added: 'There is no evidence to suggest that the promised damaging information was related to Russian government computer hacking that led to the release of thousands of Democratic National Committee emails.' 

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The meeting took place on June 9 – weeks after Trump clinched the Republican nomination. 
Veselnitskaya didn't say who initially set up the meeting while she was visiting New York for work, but told NBC she was met by Goldstone when she arrived at Trump Tower.  
Don Jr's lawyer attempted to downplay the reports in a statement given to the Times on Monday, instead trying to shift the blame to Clinton.
'In my view, this is much ado about nothing. During this busy period, Robert Goldstone contacted Don Jr. in an email and suggested that people had information concerning alleged wrongdoing by Democratic Party front-runner, Hillary Clinton, in her dealings with Russia,' Alan Futerfas told the newspaper.
'Don Jr.'s takeaway from this communication was that someone had information potentially helpful to the campaign and it was coming from someone he knew. Don Jr. had no knowledge as to what specific information, if any, would be discussed.' 


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Donald Trump Jr was reportedly told via email the damning evidence he was hoping to receive on Hillary Clinton came from the Russian government


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Trump Jr, Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort met with Kremlin-linked lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya last summer in Manhattan


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PR guru Rob Goldstone (pictured) says he facilitated the controversial meeting between Donald Trump's son and a Russian lawyer who promised 'dirt' on Hillary Clinton


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Goldstone posted this picture of himself wearing a t-shirt with 'RUSSIA' emblazoned across his chest after the election result


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Goldstone also 'checked in' at 'Trump Organization' in New York City on June 9, 2016 - the day Trump Jr, Kushner, and Manafort met with Moscow-linked lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya. Based on the post, it appears as though he chose the wrong option title, which is why it says he is in Jakarta, Indonesia, but the location on the map matches up with Trump Tower
When the newspaper contacted Kushner and his lawyers about the new allegations, they 'deferred questions on the content of the meeting' to Trump Jr. 
Manafort declined to comment through a spokesman who contacted the Times. 
The potentially damning allegation comes after White House remained adamant the president's son did not collaborate with the Russians to secure a favorable outcome in November's election. 
'The president's campaign did not collude in any way,' White House spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Monday during an off-camera question and answer session. 'I would certainly say Don Jr. did not collude with anybody to influence the election.'
Shortly after she finished, Reuters reported that Don Jr had hired criminal defense attorney Futerfas to represent him.

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Donald Trump Jr confirmed he met with the Moscow-linked lawyer in a statement on Sunday


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Donald Trump, Jr has hired criminal defense lawyer Alan Futerfas to represent him since the meeting emerged
Trump Jr, Kushner, and Manafort's meeting with Veselnitskaya came during a period of weeks when the Democratic National Committee was hacked, Wikileaks posted thousands of DNC emails, and Trump associates met with Russia's ambassador to the US.
The Senate Intelligence Committee is reportedly interested in speaking to Trump Jr, a committee source told NBC news.

WHO IS NATALIA VESELNITSKAYA? 




  • Lawyer known for waging harsh public campaign the 2012 Magnitsky Act
  • She is married to a former deputy transportation minister of the Moscow region
  • She is also the family lawyer for Denis Katsyv, the son of senior Russian government official Pyotr Katsyv
  • Katsyv's real-estate company Prevezon was under investigation by the Department of Justice at the time of the meeting
  • Prevezon allegedly laundered millions of dollars into New York City real estate
  • The case was settled for approximately $6 million in May 


 

Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, told reporters Monday that 'our intelligence committee needs to interview him and others who attended the meeting,' which took place in Trump Tower in June 9 last year.
'I think it's appropriate that he does that to clear this up,' Democrat Jack Reed, a senior Intelligence and Armed Services member who has forged ties with members of both parties, added when speaking to CNN.
The committee is already probing contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russians last year. 
Trump Jr defended himself Monday prior to the latest allegations surfacing, by claiming he 'had to listen' to the potentially damaging information.
He also appeared to contradict himself from earlier statements, in which he claimed he didn't know the identity of the Russian attendee before it happened and that the substance was about adoption.
The latest developments add further fuel to suspicions that officials with the president's campaign actively colluded with the Kremlin to tilt the election in their favor. 
Ties between officials close to Trump and Moscow have drawn scrutiny from the FBI and Congress in light of assessments that the Russian government hacked the Democratic National Committee and Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta's email account.


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The wife of a former deputy transportation minister, Natalia Veselnitskaya is best known for her public attacks on American sanctions aimed at Russian human rights abusers


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Rob Goldstone (left) is pictured during a meeting with Donald Trump (right) in Las Vegas in 2013. An email from him reportedly alerted Trump Jr to Russia's role in the Clinton 'dirt'


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The White House was adamant Monday that President Donald Trump's son did not collaborate with the Russians to secure a favorable outcome in November's election
The goal was to sway the election toward Trump and away from Clinton, intelligence officials said. 
Former FBI director Robert Mueller is leading the investigation as a special counsel into whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russia to hack the election.
Both Russia and the Trump campaign deny this. 
Veselnitskaya, is the wife of a former Russian government minister and best known for her public attacks on American sanctions aimed at Russian human rights abusers.
The Magnitsky Act imposed visa bans and asset freezes on Russian officials linked to the 2009 death in prison of Sergei Magnitsky, a 37-year-old Russian whistleblower.
Russia has demanded that the US repeal the legislation since its passage in 2012. President Vladimir Putin was so enraged by the law that he halted American adoptions of Russian children as retaliation. 
The Times also reported over the weekend Veselnitskaya's clients include state-owned businesses and the son of a senior government official whose company was under investigation in the United States at the time of the meeting. 
 She said she hasn't enjoyed being the center of the news. 
'Imagine yourself in my shoes. One morning you wake up and all of the sudden you're the focus of all the high ranking, upstream media of the world,' Veselnitskaya told NBC. 
'To summarize, those were not the happiest days of my life, I have to say,' she continued. 'I have to break up my holiday, I have to take a trip back to Moscow, because I just wanted to be able to answer the questions myself.'   



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Sarah Huckabee Sanders, stands off to the side before her turn at the podium Monday. During the off-camera briefing, she said: . 'I would certainly say Don Jr. did not collude with anybody to influence the election'

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 20:45

The wheels of justice are turning way too slow for me!

This latest from Donnie Jr. shows on ITS FACE what his intent was. Doesn't that count for anything? But the spin on this story has already begun.

Honestly we really don't know what went on in this meeting with the Russian lawyer. She has ties with the Russian government so of course she is going to lie. And Trump Jr. .... well he is a Trump. I don't think anyone involved in this meeting is telling the truth. Mad
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 20:57

The truth is something neither the Trumps or Russia could tell.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by LizzyNY on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 21:34

Whoopi Goldberg had an interesting take on this today. She thought it was possible that Trump Jr.'s tweets, even though posted to his Twitter account, might be "fake". Then the media who report it can be called out for spreading "fake news". Someone tried it on Rachel Maddow recently, and it  seems to be happening more  and more. Whoopi said the governor of Maine has even admitted to putting out false stories just to see the trouble it causes.

This country is going to hell.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 23:02

Going, nope we are there.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 00:03

I feel like we're in hell sometimes .... or some alternative universe.

Lizzy I remember Rachel talking about how someone (persons) deliberately contrived a fake news story and supplied it to her show to ultimately make the media look accountable for publicizing fake news stories. In essence attempting to sabotage the Main Street media. We are living in scary times for sure!
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 02:29

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4687474/Morning-Joe-reveals-left-GOP-Independent.html

[size=34]Morning Joe host and former congressman Joe Scarborough reveals he is leaving the Republican party to become an Independent because he is 'disgusted' with GOP's blind loyalty of Donald Trump[/size]

  • Morning Joe host and former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough announced on The Late Show Tuesday that he's leaving the GOP

  • Scarborough, who served in the House from 1995 to 2001, was once a favorite of President Trump 

  • 'I am a Republican but I'm not going to be a Republican anymore,' Scarborough told host Stephen Colbert. 'I've got to become an Independent.' 

  • In late June, the President launched a personal attack against Brzezinski, who he said was 'bleeding badly from a face-lift'


By JAMES GORDON FOR DAILYMAIL.COM 
PUBLISHED: 21:10 EDT, 11 July 2017 | UPDATED: 21:22 EDT, 11 July 2017

    
MSNBC host and former GOP Congressman Joe Scarborough, 54, has announced he is leaving the Republican party during an appearance on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.
Scarborough, who has come under tremendous criticism by The White House for turning on President Trump made the announcement on the late night chat show on Tuesday night.
'I am a Republican but I'm not gonna be a Republican anymore,' Scarborough said to to rapturous applause from the audience. 'I'm gonna become an Independent.'


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During an appearance on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, Joe Scarborough announced that he is leaving the Republican Party


+5


Morning Joe host and former Congressman Joe Scarborough has been explicit in his disapproval of President Trump


+5


Colbert opened the interview by asking Scarborough why Republicans still support President Trump.
When Colbert asked the former congressman what he made of the Republican Party's seemingly unwavering support for the current President, Scarborough did not mince words.
'It's inexplicable,' he said. 'This is well before Donald Trump was elected President that my party betrayed their core values.
'In 2015 Donald Trump supported a Muslim Ban and I said I could never vote for somebody who was going to ban people based on the God they worshiped.' 
'Last February when he talked about David Duke and pretended that he didn't know who he was or who the Ku Klux Klan did, you didn't have Republicans coming out saying 'I can never support Donald Trump because he's racist!', they'd have a thousand other reasons why, but they always overlooked that.'

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The former Republican congressman announced on The Late Show on Tuesday night that he’s leaving the GOP.


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The former Florida congressman sat down with Colbert on Tuesday night’s show alongside his Morning Joe co-host and fiancée, Mika Brzezinski
Scarborough who served as a Republican in Florida's 1st District from 1995 to 2001 said that he felt Mr Trump's message was disturbing throughout the entire campaign. 
'Time and time and time again, they turned the other way and they're doing the same thing now. and it's actually disgusting,' he said.
Scarborough and his Morning Joe co-host, Mika Brzezinski, had been friendly toward President Trump during the 2016 election but have been increasingly critical of him since his inauguration.
'You have to ask yourself how far are the Republican party willing to go. How much of this country and our values are they willing to sell out?' Scarborough questioned, justifying his decision to make the move to become an Independent.


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President Donald Trump openly attacked the MSNBC host on Twitter just a few days before the July 4 holiday weekend
In February, he and co-host & fiancée Brzezinski banned Kellyanne Conway from their show.
It sparked a back-and-forth war of words online between the President and the show hosts, including accusations that Morning Joe was failing in the ratings. 
But it didn't end there - in recent weeks, Scarborough and Brzezinski have been on the receiving end of further withering insults from the President's Twitter account. 
Trump lashed out at the pair in a series of tweets, referring to them as 'Psycho Joe' and 'low-I.Q. Crazy Mika,' and claiming Brzezinski 'was bleeding badly from a face-lift' when he saw her last year at a New Years Eve party at Mar-A-Lago.
Shortly after the attack, Scarborough and Brzezinski told of how they were then threatened by White House staffers who would blackmail them by having the National Enquirer publish a damaging story about their off-air relationship if they didn't apologize to Trump.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 03:02

I'm not a fan of Scarborough. He has been a pretty conservative Republican and very critical of Obama in the past. Ive watched 'Morning Joe' for a few years now but stopped watching when I found out after the election he was "advising" Trump. I've just started watching it again and have noticed that he is much more critical of Trump ... he has pretty much condemned him as President. So I give him credit for calling out and leaving the Republican Party.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 06:48

It is still fascinating to see that people measure politicians on different levels. Just imagine somebody else had said or done this, he or she would be called out at once...
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 06:50

Let's wait what Trump is going to tweet about Scarborough in about six hours: 'He's a bad politician, has never done anything for his country, doesn't want to make America great again!'
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Wed 12 Jul 2017, 18:58

In the number of articles I've read lately about the Trump administration chaos I've come across three references to 'Burn After Reading' comparisons. I just had to smile Wink
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Fri 14 Jul 2017, 19:44

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4697610/Russia-threatens-diplomats-expulsion.html

[size=34]From Russia with threats: Moscow says it will toss out American diplomats and close down US properties if its 'spy' compounds closed by Obama are not reopened[/size]

  • Moscow wants properties reopened after they were closed in 2016 

  • Former President Barack Obama also tossed out 35 Russian officials 

  • US security establishment said the compounds were used as spy bases 

  • Obama struggled on how to retaliate against Russia who security officials believed was trying to undermine the 2016 US election


By DANIEL ROTH and ASSOCIATED PRESS
PUBLISHED: 14:12 EDT, 14 July 2017 | UPDATED: 14:17 EDT, 14 July 2017

    

The Russian government has threatened to retaliate against the United States months after dozens of Russian officials were expelled from the US and two of its properties were shuttered.
Russia's Foreign Ministry said on Friday that it was prepared to toss out American officials from the country and close down a number of US properties in retaliation if two of its recreational compounds in the United States were not reopened. 
In December 2016, former President Barack Obama ordered 35 Russian officials to leave the United States and shut down two Russian owned estates that the American security establishment believed were used as a spy base for the Kremlin.


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Russia on Friday threatened to retaliate against the US seven months after former President Barack Obama expelled 35 Russian officials from America (stock photo)


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 Obama shut down two Russian Federation estates that US officials believed were used as spy bases for the Kremlin
Following the order, Russian President Vladamir Putin said he would not retaliate, leading then President-elect Donald Trump to praise the Russian leader in a tweet.
'Great move on delay (by V. Putin) - I always knew he was very smart!' Trump wrote on Twitter from Florida on December 29. 
The Washington Post later reported that the Obama administration struggled to find ways to retaliate against Moscow after the US discovered that Putin was directly involved in a cyber campaign to disrupt and discredit the US presidential race over two years ago. 
President Trump and Putin last week discussed the two diplomatic compounds but did not reach an agreement.


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Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova told reporters on Friday that Moscow 'will have to take reciprocal measures' if the issue is not resolved.
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov and US Undersecretary of State Tom Shannon are scheduled to meet on Monday for much-anticipated talks that Moscow abruptly canceled last month in response to new Ukraine-related sanctions announced by the Trump administration. 
Russia is hoping that Shannon will have 'detailed suggestions on how to resolve the situation' with the Russian property in the US, Zakharova said.
The State Department wants a deal that could include restarting US adoptions of Russian children.
 It also has to deal with concerns at home - the FBI and some US intelligence professionals fear giving back the sites would aid Russian spy efforts. 


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Russia said it is hoping that the US will have 'detailed suggestions on how to resolve the situation'

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Sun 16 Jul 2017, 18:47

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4701054/Trump-defends-son-attacking-Hillary-latest-rant.html

[size=34]Donald Trump defends his son from the 'fake news media' in Twitter rant attacking latest reports about the controversial meeting with a Russian lawyer... despite Don Jr admitting to it[/size]

  • The president went on one of his now-expected Sunday morning Twitter rants 

  • He defended his son from the 'fake news media' while attacking Hillary Clinton 

  • Trump also attempted to discredit media reporting of his son's - and two senior campaign officials - meeting with a Russian-linked lawyer in New York last June

  • The rant comes after it was revealed the president's campaign paid more than $50,000 to the law office brought on to represent his son in the wake of reports

  • Trump also attacked the Washington Post and ABC News after a new poll was released detailing how his approval rating has hit a new low of just 36 per cent 


By LIAM QUINN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 09:27 EDT, 16 July 2017 UPDATED: 11:10 EDT, 16 July 2017



     

     

     

     
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Donald Trump has launched into one of his trademark Twitter rants, this time defending his son, Don Jr, and attacking Hillary Clinton.
The president sounded more like a protective father on Sunday morning, when he attempted to discredit recent media reports regarding Donald Jr's meeting with a Russian-linked lawyer during the campaign who promised him dirt on Hillary Clinton.
'HillaryClinton can illegally get the questions to the Debate & delete 33,000 emails but my son Don is being scorned by the Fake News Media?' Trump tweeted. 
He continued in another tweet: 'With all of its phony unnamed sources & highly slanted & even fraudulent reporting, #Fake News is DISTORTING DEMOCRACY in our country!'
Scroll down for video 


+7


Donald Trump has defended his son in a Twitter rant on Sunday morning after fresh details regarding Trump Jr's meeting with a Russian lawyer emerged
Trump also defended his own performance, after a new ABC News and Washington Post poll found his approval ratings hit 36 per cent - the lowest figure during his time in office.
'The ABC/Washington Post Poll, even though almost 40% is not bad at this time, was just about the most inaccurate poll around election time!' the president tweeted.
The Washington Post's final poll, published on November 7, said Clinton would win with a 49 to 46 margin. 
Hillary won 48 per cent of the votes cast, while Trump won 45.9 per cent, which would suggest it was actually fairly accurate - despite what the president tweeted.
Trump's latest rant comes after it was reported Saturday night that his campaign forked over $50,000 to the law office now representing his son a little more than a week before news of his meeting with the Russian attorney surfaced.
The payment to the Law Offices of Alan S. Futerfas, dated June 27, was disclosed in a filing with the Federal Election Commission on Saturday. 

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Donald and Donald Trump Jr are pictured together in Vancouver in 2013. Trump Sr defended his son on Twitter Sunday morning






Trump launched into a Twitter rant on Sunday morning after more reports about his son's meeting with a Russian lawyer emerged
It was described as covering 'legal consulting' fees.
Trump Jr admitted to meeting with Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya on June 9 at his father's building in Manhattan. The meeting was also attended by then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, Trump's son-in-law and trusted adviser Jared Kushner, former Soviet counterintelligence officer Rinat Akhmetshi, and others, according to reports. 
Don Jr was told in an email ahead of the meeting Veselnitskaya could provide him with information that would damage Hillary's campaign, and that the Russian government was in some way involved in the alleged 'dirt'.
The legal payments uncovered this weekend were described as 'consulting' fees. 
The payment was made to Futerfas' firm days before the story about the meeting broke, which caused a scramble inside the White House and Trump Tower to contain it.
The disclosures do not say who Futerfas was hired to represent.
Spokesmen for Trump's re-election campaign and Futerfas did not respond to requests for comment.


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It was reported Saturday night the Trump campaign forked over $50,000 to the law office now representing Trump Jr a little more than a week before news of his meeting with the Russian attorney surfaced


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Trump Jr admitted to meeting with Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya on June 9 at his father's building in Manhattan


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According to reports, then-campaign manager Paul Manafort (left) and Trump's son-in-law and trusted adviser Jared Kushner (right) also met with the Russian lawyer last June

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Futerfas was revealed as Trump Jr's lawyer on Monday after a New York Times report detailed meetings between the president's eldest son and the Russian lawyer.
Futerfas has not said when he was hired.
Separately, the campaign also paid $89,561 for 'legal consulting' to The Trump Corporation, which is owned by the president.
The scandal is the latest in a long line suggesting there have been links between people close to Trump and Russian figures.
A federal special counsel and several congressional panels are investigating allegations by US intelligence agencies that Russia meddled in the 2016 US presidential election, as well as potential connections between Russian officials and the Trump campaign.[/size]

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 22:23

Something personnel but very serious:

Last Wednesday, my 18 year old nephew told one of his collegues at work that he thought about committing suicide. Fortunately this collegue reacted immediately and called his boss who called my sister. They watched him until my sister came go pick him up and brought him to our local clinic. They didn't want to risk anything because they couldn't judge if he'd take it seriously, so they brought him to a mental hospital. He told them that he thought about killing himself for about 18 months and had already made precise plans how to succeed.

He's the most positive, nicest guy you can imagine, always smiling, happy and helpful. He doesn't know why, at they moment they think it's a classical depression. We all are completely shocked and just thankful that he was taken seriously and hope that they are now able to help him.
His best friend told me that my nephew had told him about that a few times, but he never took him seriously. We didn't want to blame him for not telling anybody but asked him to tell somebody else if ever again somebody would tell him that. At 17, I guess you can't judge how serious somebody is about that.


Last edited by carolhathaway on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 22:25; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : can't spell...)
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 00:18

CarolH, I'm glad you feel comfortable enough here to share your family's pain. My family has dealt with something similar -- academic star, hard worker, helpful, cheerful temperament... who carefully planned to kill herself. We found out about her suicidal plans purely by accident, or it would have been truly tragic. I think your nephew really wanted help; otherwise he wouldn't have told anyone.

Prayers that he recovers and thrives.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by party animal - not! on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 03:14

I remember at 17 or 18 having to study eight or nine pieces of literature for university entrance - and they were all about death. I definitely remember the nightmares and wondering what life was all about. I think it's an incredibly sensitive age

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by LizzyNY on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 03:25

This is a hard world. It's especially hard for kids who are trying to figure it all out when they haven't even figured themselves out yet. And often the ones who surprise us by taking their own lives are the ones we thought had it all together. I guess you never know what's going on in someone else's head.

Carolhathaway, I'm glad your nephew was stopped before he was able to complete his plan and is getting help.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 04:23

Carol, it is so lucky that your nephew told someone what he was thinking. I too think it was a sign that he was looking for help. I hope he will be able to open up and talk freely about what he is really feeling.
Thanks for sharing such a personal story.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 08:47

We're still quite in disbelieve. Not that we thought he was joking about it. But we visited him on Sunday, and when we arrived, he was playing billiard with another young man. So we just sat down and watched them. And they both were just talking normal stuff, behaving normally. Nothing that showed us something about why they were there. His greatest fear was, since we found out there that he smokes, that we'd tell his grand parents. Rolling Eyes But these ups and downs seem to be typical for depressions.
Anyway, my sister has talked to his employers in the meantime, they are very appreciative and happy that he didn't fulfill his plans. He works at a company which builds,  sells and repairs large farming machines, so I guess it's quite easy to cause an accident.

Nevertheless, we all are very happy that he finally told somebody about his problems and gets the help he needs. It also reminds me to listen and to watch my own kids more carefully. They will turn 16, and so far I'd say that they are very happy teenagers. But that's what I'd thought about my nephew as well...

I told you last night because I thought: There are serious issues besides world politics, all the crap many people tweet and talk.


Last edited by carolhathaway on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 08:49; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : still can't spell...)
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 11:48

Carol, I hope your nephew gets the help he needs and will be able to deal with
his depression. With family support he should be fine.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by fava on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 14:40

So sad and disturbing that such young people feel so hopeless.  I'm glad your nephew reached out and is getting help.  For ex, medication can make a big difference with depression. Best wishes to him and your family.

A few years ago a high school classmate of my daughter's killed herself. She was 17 and just about to become a senior in high school.  It was shocking the girl was so overwhelmed she felt there was no other answer and it affected me for weeks. I am sure her family will be reeling for years (she was a triplet) and maybe always.  

So much of our internal lives are not revealed to anyone. You never know what is going on in someone's head --or their marriage(another truth I've discovered over the years).

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by LizzyNY on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 15:47

fava wrote: So much of our internal lives are not revealed to anyone. You never know what is going on in someone's head --or their marriage(another truth I've discovered over the years).
True, fava. Everyone has a public and a private face. We only see what they choose to reveal to us - as has often been said here about George and his life. We only know what he wants us to know, no matter how much we speculate. We all have a need to keep some things to ourselves alone and not share them with anyone else. I don't think anyone could survive without that sense of privacy.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 17:52

Totally agree with those thoughts fava and Lizzy.  Keeping certain aspects of our thinking/feelings private is an attempt to be autonomous, and to protect ourselves from the outside world ... being vulnerable to judgement and criticism.


Last edited by Donnamarie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 18:09; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added text)
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 21:21

I absolutely agree with you all.
Of course we keep thoughts and aspects for ourselves, we just need this. How much more do people, especially celebrities like George need this who are constantly watched whenever they are in public. And this has always happened. They need to protect themselves.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 21:38

Today five members of Amnesty International, all human rights activists, were imprisoned in Turkey, they are accused to support terrorists. That's what every other prisoner is accused as well, beneath 10,000 Turks there are ten Germans and many others. President accuses everybody who critisizes him to either be a terrorist or support terrorists. A journalist with dual citizenship, German and Turkish, was arrested five months ago and there still is no arraignment.
Other journalists, scientists and army generals have seeked for asylum in Germany and live here now. Erdogan now wants to reinstall death penalty with retroactive effect to be able to fate those to die whom he sees as responsible for the putsch last July.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by carolhathaway on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 21:40

By the way:
Nobody has written about Trump's desaster on his health care plan so far.
But of course he now plans to repeal Obamacare now ans replace it later. What a great idea!
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by party animal - not! on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 21:51

Yep. You could almost predict that this is what he wanted to do all along and to hell with the health of millions - or let all the health insurers make all the money while devolving all the responsibility to all the states so that he,Trump, could say it's nothing to do with him when it's all goes pear-shaped.............

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 22:53

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4707658/McConnell-says-Senate-repeal-Obamacare-coming-days.html

[size=34]Republican plan to repeal Obamacare now and figure out a replacement later fizzles immediately after three GOP senators abandon the idea – and two of them voted for it in 2015![/size]

  • Majority Leader said Senate should repeal Obamacare now and start the clock ticking on a two-year deadline to replace it with something better

  • Both houses of Congress passed a nearly identical plan in December 2015, with 52 Republican senators backing it

  • Only two in the GOP opposed it then, including one member who is no longer in Congress

  • But now three – including two 'yes' votes from the previous attempt – say they oppose this year's version 

  • Trump has long favored a plan to 'simultaneously' repeal and replace the Obamacare law but now says he'll let it crumble of its own weight


By DAVID MARTOSKO, US POLITICAL EDITOR FOR DAILYMAIL.COM 
PUBLISHED: 11:46 EDT, 18 July 2017 | UPDATED: 16:29 EDT, 18 July 2017




The Republican-led U.S. Senate's chance for a quick vote on repealing the Obamacare law crashed and burned quickly on Tuesday, as three Republicans came out to oppose it.
The GOP holds 52 votes in the Senate, plus Vice President Mike Pence as a tiebreaker, meaning it can afford just two defections.
Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said Monday morning that senators would vote within days on a plan to kill Obamacare that would give lawmakers a two year sunset period to figure out a replacement.  
'In the coming days,' McConnell said on the Senate floor, 'the Senate will take up and vote on a repeal of Obamacare combined with a stable, two-year transition period as we work toward patient-centered health care.'
'A majority of the Senate voted to pass the same repeal legislation in 2015. President Obama vetoed it then. President Trump will sign it now.'
Enter Sens. Susan Collins of Maine, Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. the latter two voted in support of the December 2015 plan but now say they oppose it.
SCROLL DOWN FOR VIDEO 


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Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's repeal-and-replace-Obamacare bill has gone down in flames, but now he wants to pass a repeal-first bill giving lawmakers a two-year deadline to find a workable substitute


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President Trump embraced a 'simultaneous' repeal-and-replace strategy early on, but more recently called for Obamacare to be smashed even if there was no immediate replacement plan on the table


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Republican senators Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia (left) and Susan Collins of Maine (right) quickly said they would vote against a repeal-first package, which Capito supported less than two years ago


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Senator Lisa Murkowski of Maine, another senator who favored the December 2015 bill, followed with a flip-flopping 'no' pledge hours later
That roll call vote passed by a 52-47 margin, with Collins and Illinois Sen. Mark Kirk, who lost re-election in 2016, being the GOP's only 'no' votes.
Collins said Tuesday that she will vote against the same bill this time around. 
'We can't just hope that we will pass a replacement within the next two years,' she said in a statement. 'Repealing without a replacement would create great uncertainty for individuals who rely on the [Affordable Care Act] and cause further turmoil in the insurance markets.'
Capito, who voted 'yes' in 2015, said Tuesday that she's changed her mind.
'My position on this issue is driven by its impact on West Virginians. With that in mind, I cannot vote to repeal ObamaCare without a replacement plan that addresses my concerns and the needs of West Virginians,' she said in a statement. 
Murkowski, the other apparent flip-flopper, said in a statement that 'I cannot vote to proceed to repeal the ACA without reform that allows people the choice they want, the affordability they need and the quality of care they deserve.'



[size=10][size=18]Senate will vote to repeal Obamacare, replace later: McConnell



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On Monday night Trump urged Republicans to repeal Obamacare and start afresh with a new healthcare plan



That approach mirrored what the president proposed on June 30, the same day a Republican senator wrote him to propose a plan like what McConnell floated Tuesday morning


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Speaker of the House Paul Ryan said Tuesday that the Obamacare system 'is collapsing,' and 'more and more people don't even have any choices left, or even one choice'

[size=18]Schumer urges Republicans to work with Democrats on healthcare



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Trump had long favored a simultaneous repeal-and-replace approach.
He told CBS News just days after the November election that 'it will be essentially, simultaneously.'
'It will be various segments, you understand, but will most likely be on the same day or the same week. But probably the same day, could be the same hour.'
Legislative reality has set in since then, driving conservative and moderate Republicans apart on the devilish details.
On Tuesday he told reporters at the White House that 'I've been saying for a very long time, "Let Obamacare fail and then everybody is going to have to come together and fix it, and come up with a new plan, and a plan that is really good for the people with much lower premiums, much lower costs, much better protection".'


+8


President Donald Trump, flanked by Vice President Mike Pence, left, and National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster, told reporters on Tuesday that he's 'no going to own' Obamacare as it fails, but would use the law's demise to encourage Democrats to work with Republicans on a new national health care strategy
'I think we're probably in that position where we'll let Obamacare fail,' Trump added. 'We're not going to own it. I'm not going to own it. I can tell you the Republicans are not going to own it.'
'We'll let Obamacare fail and then the Democrats are going to come to us and they are going to say, "How do we fix it? how do we fix it?" or "How do we come up with a new plan?"'
By summertime, the president already seemed resigned to the possibility that Republicans' best laid plans to repeal and replace Obamacare in a single breath  might go awry.
'If Republican Senators are unable to pass what they are working on now, they should immediately REPEAL, and then REPLACE at a later date!' he tweeted on June 30.
That seemed to be a reaction to a letter Nebraska Republican Sen. Ben Sasse sent him the same day.
Sasse predicted that senators would fall short of agreeing on an Obamacare replacement, and asked Trump to embrace the reintroduction of a December 2015 bill that was nearly identical to what McConnell proposed Tuesday morning.

[size=18]Trump hits Democrats for 'Obamacare catastrophe' during Ohio stop




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[/size] he asked for a July 10 battle plan requiring the Senate to 'immediately vote again on H.R. 3762, the December 2015 ObamaCare repeal legislation that the Congress passed but President Obama vetoed.'
'We should include a year-long implementation delay to give comfort to Americans currently on ObamaCare that a replacement plan will be enacted before expiration,' he added, asking for a shorter phase-in period than McConnell's.
H.R. 3762 was sponsored by then-Rep. Tom Price, who is now Secretary of Health and Human Services. 
A Senate leadership aide told DailyMail.com that the bill McConnell is preparing will otherwise be 'functionally identical' to the December 2015 effort.  
'With only one exception,' Sasse wrote in June, 'every member of this Senate majority – moderate and conservative – has explicitly endorsed and/or already voted to repeal ObamaCare, most recently on December 3, 2015.'
'And our newest colleagues, Senators Kennedy and Strange, who were not here at the time of that vote, have also campaigned on promises to repeal this disastrous law. We must keep our word.' 
On Tuesday during a House leadership press conference, Speaker Paul Ryan urged the Senate to act one way or another.


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Nebraska Republican Sen. Ben Sasse first told Trump on June 30 that he should back a plan like McConnell's

[size=18]Trump held victory rally with House GOP on healthcare vote in May




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The Obamacare system, Ryan said, 'is collapsing,' and would result in a single-payer, 'government-run' system if a more market-centered approach doesn't replace it.
'More and more people don't even have any choices left, or even one choice,' he said. 
'Forty-one per cent of the counties in America have no competition in health insurance. They have one health insurer left. Premiums have doubled. Options are disappearing. Many counties in America now have no health insurers left.
'So that is just the stark reality of the moment, and so we're hopeful that the Senate can take the pause that they need to take and move forward on this issue so we can get something done.'

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 02:09

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4707542/Trump-wild-stallion-sold-horse-meat.html

[size=38]EXCLUSIVE: Trump the wild stallion and his 15 mares face becoming HORSE MEAT under Trump administration plan for mustangs to be sold for food (even ones looking like the president)[/size]

  • A wild mustang nicknamed Trump because of its golden hair, permanent tan and love for the ladies could be slaughtered under Trump-backed plans

  • The president's interior secretary, Ryan Zinke, wants Congress to allow wild horses on federal lands to be rounded up and sent abroad for slaughter

  • Congress will consider the measure this week and animal rights campaigners fear Trump and his 15 mares could be casualties

  • They are part of group of wild horses in Antelope Valley, Nevada, known locally as the Presidential Herd

  • Slaughtering wild horses on federal lands is currently illegal but the Department of the Interior says the numbers of mustangs is not sustainable


By ALANA GOODMAN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 11:52 EDT, 18 July 2017 | UPDATED: 16:31 EDT, 18 July 2017

    

A Congressional vote this week could send thousands of America's wild horses to slaughter horses – including a beloved, golden-haired stallion who was named in honor of President Trump.
Congress is currently considering whether to overturn a 50-year-law that makes it illegal for the government to sell America's wild mustangs to horse meat facilities.
If the proposal is approved, up to 40,000 wild horses living on federal lands could be sold for $25 dollars a head as soon as October.
That includes 'Trump,' a Palomino stallion and leader of the so-called Presidential Herd, a group of horses in eastern Nevada that descends from American warhorses.
After the presidential election, wild horse advocates nicknamed the herd boss 'Trump' due to his high energy, billowing gold mane, and machismo. 


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Why the long face: Trump the stallion (left) could be the casualty of new plans by the president's Department of the Interior to round up wild horses on federal land for slaughter 


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Inspired: The mustang, part of the 'Presidential Herd' in Antelope Valley, Nevada, was named for the president because of his flowing blonde mane, permament tan, relentless energy and love for his female companions


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Having a mare: Trump the stallion (left) could be a high-profile casualty of a slaughter policy which Ryan Zinke, the interior secretary, is asking Congress to change the law to allow


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Flowing mane: Trump the stallion's nickname was inspired by his hair's similarity to the president's - as well as his tan color and energy


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Keep him great: Campaigners say that Trump, the Presidential Herd, and other wild horses should remain protected from being rounded up for slaughter, which they say is cruel. The Department of the Interior says 70,000 wild horses are squeezed onto land which can sustain only 20,000


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Simply magnificent: Jeanne Bencich Nations has shared her photographs of the herd with DailyMail.com in an attempt to persuade Congress not to vote in favor of horse slaughter being allowed
Wild horse advocates are now pleading for Trump to step in and save the stallion and the country's other free-roaming horses.
The horse also shares the president's perpetual tan and love for ladies. 
President Trump is on his third marriage and was linked to numerous models during his single years, while Trump the stallion is currently paired up with at least 15 mares.
'The magnificent Palomino stallion who leads the presidential herd is the perfect horse to be named after the president of this great country,' said Suzanne Roy, campaign director of the American Wild Horse Campaign.
'This proud mustang represents our hope that President Trump will stand with Americans, who overwhelmingly support protection of America's wild horses as irreplaceable national treasures and oppose horse slaughter.'
Stunning pictures taken by photographer and local resident Jeanne Bencich Nations show the stallion leading his herd through the pastures of Antelope Valley, a grassy basin surrounded by mountains in eastern Nevada, as the animals graze and drink from mountain gorges.

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'America can't be great if our national symbols of greatness are destroyed and brutally slaughtered. To lose any of these beautiful herds would be tragic,' said Nations, who often documents the travels of the Presidential Herd. 
'We would be losing part of our history.'
The Presidential Herd's heritage dates back to an army cavalry base in the area, where wild horses were bred with larger stocks for battle between the mid-1800s and World War I, according to wild horses groups.
The nickname the 'presidential herd' dates back decades in local lore to the grandfather of a local rancher. 
'These Nevada wild horses trace their bloodlines back more than a century to the horses that helped settle the West and defend our country as America's war horses,' said Roy.
'The regal herd is distinguished by beautiful colors – many Palominos, Grullas and Greys. 
'The horses of the Presidential Herd tend to be larger than some of their mustang counterparts, due to their cavalry heritage and the mixing in of thoroughbred and Morgan stock with wild bloodlines,' she added.


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With the mares: Trump the mustang has 15 mares whom he leads, making him more prolific than his thrice-married presidential namesake


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Symbols of American greatness: The Presidential Herd has had its nickname locally for decades in recognition of its mixed bloodline of wild horses and cavalry mounts. 


+14



Documented: Local photographer Jeanne Bencich Nations has created a record of the Antelope Valley, Nevada, herds. The Department of Interior says there are far too many horses for the land and that a round-up for slaughter is needed


+14



Too crowded? There are an estimated 70,000 wild horses in the United States on land that the Bureau of Land Management says can only hold 20,000. Campaigners say slaughter for food will not work and that female horses should be injected with contraceptives instead


+14



Campaign: Jeanne Bencich Nations, a photographer who has documented the Presidential Herd, is sharing her images of the mustangs in the hope of persuading Congress not to back a law change which would allow them to be sold for horse meat


+14



Issue in focus: 'America can't be great if our national symbols of greatness are destroyed and brutally slaughtered. To lose any of these beautiful herds would be tragic,' says photographer Jeanne Benchich Nations.
A House committee is expected to consider an amendment to be introduced on Tuesday that would overturn the long-time ban that prevents the government from selling wild horses for meat. 
If it is approved by a full congressional vote, the sales could begin as early as October 1.
The change was first proposed in the 2018 budget request submitted to Congress by the Department of the Interior's Bureau of Land Management, which oversees wild horses on public lands. 
Currently there are no horse slaughter horses in America, so the animals would have to be sold to foreign countries such as Mexico.
Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke previously pushed for the reestablishment of horse slaughter facilities in Montana while serving in the state senate.


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Horse concern: Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke believes the round-up and sale for horse meat of the mustangs is needed because of over-population
'When a horse is too old to breed, too old to ride, or too expensive to feed, a horse is disposed of,' said Zinke in 2009.
There are an estimated 70,000 wild horses in the United States on land that the Bureau of Land Management says can only hold 20,000.
Opponents of the slaughter sale ban say it is fueling horse overpopulation. Large-scale ranchers oppose the ban because they say the prevalence of free-range horses interferes with livestock grazing in the area.
There are also concerns about the expenses; the federal government devotes millions on upkeep, and last year spent nearly $50 million rounding up and caring for wild mustangs in government holding areas.
Horse advocates argue that overpopulation claims are exaggerated and based on faulty statistics about how many horses the land can handle. They also insist birth control is a more humane and financially sound method of managing the wild horses, and say it can be done by injecting the female horses with contraceptives every three years.
Horse slaughter is a sensitive subject for many Americans. Seventy-five percent of Americans said they support a continued ban on wild horse slaughter, according to a survey last week conducted by Public Policy Polling and commissioned by the American Wild Horse Campaign.
Wild horse advocates are concerned that the current environment in Congress makes it more likely the ban will be overturned. 
Last week, the same House committee approved a similar proposal that would allow horse slaughter horses to operate in the U.S., which had effectively been illegal for over a decade.


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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 03:53

I'm not familiar with the horse slaughter issue but I don't trust anything that the Trump Administration says in arguing for or aganst any issue. On the face of it I don't like the idea of horses being slaughtered because of their overpopulation on public lands. I would want to hear more facts but it's a sad situation.

What Trump said today about letting Obamacare fail on
its own was mean and cruel to the millions of people who depend on the ACA for their healthcare. He and the Repubs have already been sabotaging the ACA for months. The only thing Trump wanted out of this proposed health care bill was a "win" for himself. The only thing Republicans wanted was to kill Obamacare because they couldn't stand Obama. Helping the American people was an afterthought for both ....
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by LizzyNY on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 12:05

annemarie - It's no surprise the Trump camp would back killing horses. After all, his son kills things for fun and their health "care" program would kill people! Killing horses rather than looking for a more humane solution is par for the course with them.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 13:54

Your absolutely right Lizzy . This man is horrible and there seems to be no end to him in the White House.
I read that more people are in favor of impeaching him than there were for Nixon's impeachment.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 10:54

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4712682/Trump-slams-Sessions-Comey-Mueller-fiery-interview.html

[size=34]Trump slams Sessions and says he would NEVER have hired him if he knew he'd recuse himself from Russia probe - before warning special prosecutor Mueller not to pry into his family business in explosive interview[/size]

  • Trump spoke with The New York Times in an interview published on Wednesday 

  • He told the newspaper he never would have hired Jeff Sessions as the Attorney General if he knew he would later recuse himself from Russia investigation 

  • Trump said it was 'unfair to the president' that Sessions took the job then stepped away from the probe 

  • He also slammed James Comey, the ousted FBI director, claiming he used the dirty dossier of made-up material about him as leverage to try to keep his job

  • He also warned special prosecutor Robert Mueller not to look in to his family or his family's finances as part of the ongoing probe into links to the Kremlin 

  • Taking aim at the special prosecutor's efforts, Trump said his office was full of 'conflicts of interest'  


By JENNIFER SMITH FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 20:25 EDT, 19 July 2017 | UPDATED: 23:10 EDT, 19 July 2017

President Trump has took aim at Jeff Sessions, fired FBI director James Comey and Robert Mueller in a no-holds barred interview on Wednesday. 
Speaking to The New York Times, he admonished Sessions, the attorney general, for recusing himself from the Russia investigation and said he never would have given him the position had he known ahead of time.
'Jeff Sessions takes the job, gets into the job, recuses himself, which frankly I think is very unfair to the president. 
'How do you take a job and then recuse yourself? If he would have recused himself before the job, I would have said, "Thanks, Jeff, but I’m not going to take you." It’s extremely unfair — and that’s a mild word — to the president.' 


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President Trump slammed Attorney General Jeff Sessions on Wednesday as he took part in a wide-ranging interview with The New York Times. The pair are pictured in February 
He went on to describe Sessions' testimony before a Senate House Committee investigating the issue as 'bad'. 
'Jeff Sessions gave some bad answers. He gave some answers that were simple questions and should have been simple answers, but they weren't,' he said. 
Next in the firing line was ousted FBI director James Comey. 

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Trump said he believed Comey, who he fired unceremoniously in May, of leveraging the now infamous 'dirty dossier' of made-up material that was supposed to incriminate the president and his connections to Russia in order to keep his job. 
Two weeks before his inauguration in January, Comey attended a meeting at Trump Tower where he warned the president of the dossier's existence. 
'In my opinion, he shared it so that I would think he had it out there,' he said. Asked specifically if he believed Comey used it 'as leverage', he replied: 'Yeah I think so, in retrospect.'

Among his comments was that he never would have hired Attorney General Jeff Sessions if he had known he would recuse himself from the Russia investigation 
The dossier contained false information about the president and his alleged connections to Russia. It was compiled by a former British spy.  
Trump claimed he fired Comey over his poor handling of the Hillary Clinton email scandal last year. 
After being fired, Comey revealed that he feared the president let him go because after he carried out the investigation into the administration's ties with Russia after a private conversation during which he claimed the president asked him to ease off.
Trump insists he never directed Comey on how to conduct the investigation and claims he did not, as it was suggested by the former FBI director, ask him to go easy on disgraced National Security Adviser Michael Flynn who resigned earlier this year. 
In his interview on Tuesday, however, the president did not shy away from discussing the investigation's new leader, Robert Mueller. 
While Trump insisted to the Times that he would never instruct the Justice Department to fire Mueller, he did warn that if he turned the investigation towards his family's finances  beyond Russia, he would consider it going too far.
'I think that’s a violation. Look, this is about Russia,' he said. 
He also claimed that Mueller's office was rife was conflicts of interest and said confidently: 'I don’t think we’re under investigation.  I’m not under investigation. For what? I didn’t do anything wrong.' 



Trump said ousted FBI Director James Comey (left) used the dirty dossier of made-up material about him as leverage in an attempt to keep his job back in January, before the president's inauguration. Elsewhere in the interview he warned Robert Mueller, (right) the special prosecutor now leading the Russian investigation, not to go too far with it by looking in to his family's resources 


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The president also addressed his meeting with Vladimir Putin at the G20 summit in Hamburg, Germany, in July. He claimed their informal meeting lasted just 15 minutes and that they spoke about 'adoptions'. Others say the secret meeting went on for an hour. They are pictured shaking hands at a scheduled sit-down at the same event 
The president also touched on his meeting with Vladimir Putin after the G20 summit, claiming the pair only spoke for 15 minutes and that the conversation was about Russia's ban on US citizens adopting children from the country. 
Interestingly, the same subject was given as the reason for an ill-fated meeting which his son Donald Trump Jr. attended last summer during his election campaign. 
A string of emails - released by Donald Jr. before to preempt it being released by the media -  has since proved that the real reason for it was for Trump to be given dirt on his opponent Hillary Clinton. 
Whether or not that meeting was discussed was not in the Times's report on Wednesday night.  
The interview took place in the Oval Office and Hope Hicks, Trump's long-serving aide, was present. It marked a change in the president's discourse with The New York Times, a liberal newspaper which he regularly categorizes as 'fake news media'.  
During the 50-minute conversation, the president's daughter Ivanka appeared with her six-year-old daughter Arabella. 
Arabella ran to her grandfather to give him a kiss then showcased her command of Chinese for the reporters present.

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Katiedot on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 14:33

Thought this was very interesting (sorry for the long read) but I think this explains a lot about what's going on right now:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/despot-disguise-democracy-james-mcgill-buchanan-totalitarian-capitalism

A despot in disguise: one man’s mission to rip up democracy
George Monbiot

James McGill Buchanan’s vision of totalitarian capitalism has infected public policy in the US. Now it’s being exported

• George Monbiot is a Guardian columnist


Wednesday 19 July 2017 05.29

It’s the missing chapter: a key to understanding the politics of the past half century. To read Nancy MacLean’s new book, Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right’s Stealth Plan for America, is to see what was previously invisible.

The history professor’s work on the subject began by accident. In 2013 she stumbled across a deserted clapboard house on the campus of George Mason University in Virginia. It was stuffed with the unsorted archives of a man who had died that year whose name is probably unfamiliar to you: James McGill Buchanan. She says the first thing she picked up was a stack of confidential letters concerning millions of dollars transferred to the university by the billionaire Charles Koch.

How corporate dark money is taking power on both sides of the Atlantic
George Monbiot

Her discoveries in that house of horrors reveal how Buchanan, in collaboration with business tycoons and the institutes they founded, developed a hidden programme for suppressing democracy on behalf of the very rich. The programme is now reshaping politics, and not just in the US.

Buchanan was strongly influenced by both the neoliberalism of Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises, and the property supremacism of John C Calhoun, who argued in the first half of the 19th century that freedom consists of the absolute right to use your property (including your slaves) however you may wish; any institution that impinges on this right is an agent of oppression, exploiting men of property on behalf of the undeserving masses.

James Buchanan brought these influences together to create what he called public choice theory. He argued that a society could not be considered free unless every citizen has the right to veto its decisions. What he meant by this was that no one should be taxed against their will. But the rich were being exploited by people who use their votes to demand money that others have earned, through involuntary taxes to support public spending and welfare. Allowing workers to form trade unions and imposing graduated income taxes were forms of “differential or discriminatory legislation” against the owners of capital.

Any clash between “freedom” (allowing the rich to do as they wish) and democracy should be resolved in favour of freedom. In his book The Limits of Liberty, he noted that “despotism may be the only organisational alternative to the political structure that we observe.” Despotism in defence of freedom.

His prescription was a “constitutional revolution”: creating irrevocable restraints to limit democratic choice. Sponsored throughout his working life by wealthy foundations, billionaires and corporations, he developed a theoretical account of what this constitutional revolution would look like, and a strategy for implementing it.

He explained how attempts to desegregate schooling in the American south could be frustrated by setting up a network of state-sponsored private schools. It was he who first proposed privatising universities, and imposing full tuition fees on students: his original purpose was to crush student activism. He urged privatisation of social security and many other functions of the state. He sought to break the links between people and government, and demolish trust in public institutions. He aimed, in short, to save capitalism from democracy.

In 1980, he was able to put the programme into action. He was invited to Chile, where he helped the Pinochet dictatorship write a new constitution, which, partly through the clever devices Buchanan proposed, has proved impossible to reverse entirely. Amid the torture and killings, he advised the government to extend programmes of privatisation, austerity, monetary restraint, deregulation and the destruction of trade unions: a package that helped trigger economic collapse in 1982.

None of this troubled the Swedish Academy, which through his devotee at Stockholm University Assar Lindbeck in 1986 awarded James Buchanan the Nobel memorial prize for economics. It is one of several decisions that have turned this prize toxic.

But his power really began to be felt when Koch, currently the seventh richest man in the US, decided that Buchanan held the key to the transformation he sought. Koch saw even such ideologues as Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan as “sellouts”, as they sought to improve the efficiency of government rather than destroy it altogether. But Buchanan took it all the way.

MacLean says that Charles Koch poured millions into Buchanan’s work at George Mason University, whose law and economics departments look as much like corporate-funded thinktanks as they do academic faculties. He employed the economist to select the revolutionary “cadre” that would implement his programme (Murray Rothbard, at the Cato Institute that Koch founded, had urged the billionaire to study Lenin’s techniques and apply them to the libertarian cause). Between them, they began to develop a programme for changing the rules.

The papers Nancy MacLean discovered show that Buchanan saw stealth as crucial. He told his collaborators that “conspiratorial secrecy is at all times essential”. Instead of revealing their ultimate destination, they would proceed by incremental steps. For example, in seeking to destroy the social security system, they would claim to be saving it, arguing that it would fail without a series of radical “reforms”. (The same argument is used by those attacking the NHS). Gradually they would build a “counter-intelligentsia”, allied to a “vast network of political power” that would become the new establishment.

Through the network of thinktanks that Koch and other billionaires have sponsored, through their transformation of the Republican party, and the hundreds of millions they have poured into state congressional and judicial races, through the mass colonisation of Trump’s administration by members of this network and lethally effective campaigns against everything from public health to action on climate change, it would be fair to say that Buchanan’s vision is maturing in the US.

But not just there. Reading this book felt like a demisting of the window through which I see British politics. The bonfire of regulations highlighted by the Grenfell Tower disaster, the destruction of state architecture through austerity, the budgeting rules, the dismantling of public services, tuition fees and the control of schools: all these measures follow Buchanan’s programme to the letter. I wonder how many people are aware that David Cameron’s free schools project stands in a tradition designed to hamper racial desegregation in the American south.

In one respect, Buchanan was right: there is an inherent conflict between what he called “economic freedom” and political liberty. Complete freedom for billionaires means poverty, insecurity, pollution and collapsing public services for everyone else. Because we will not vote for this, it can be delivered only through deception and authoritarian control. The choice we face is between unfettered capitalism and democracy. You cannot have both.

Buchanan’s programme is a prescription for totalitarian capitalism. And his disciples have only begun to implement it. But at least, thanks to MacLean’s discoveries, we can now apprehend the agenda. One of the first rules of politics is, know your enemy. We’re getting there.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by LizzyNY on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 15:19

Katie - Unfortunately, I think we have known their agenda for a long time. Because they hold he purse strings we haven't done anything to stop them. It may take another revolution for these elitist bastards to realize that their fortunes wouldn't exist if the work for which they take credit is really done by their employees. If they had to do it themselves they'd be flat broke and living in cardboard boxes under a bridge.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 21:43

The Republican far right embraces this philosophy.  Even if they don't admit it. There is a huge struggle within the Republican Party right now between the super conservatives who think capitalism will cure all ills in the U.S. and the more moderate contingency who do believe in some form of a social contract with the country. It showed itself clearly during the healthcare debate.  

The Koch Brothers are at the forefront of this elitist effort.  Look at their destructive efforts in the past several years to manipulate our democracy to facilitate private greed.  They are busy, busy guys.

The Democratic Party has their work cut out for them.


Last edited by Donnamarie on Thu 20 Jul 2017, 21:44; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correct spelling)
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Katiedot Yesterday at 05:41

LizzyNY wrote: these elitist bastards to realize that their fortunes wouldn't exist if the work for which they take credit is really done by their employees. If they had to do it themselves they'd be flat broke and living in cardboard boxes under a bridge.
I so agree with you. But I think nothing, absolutely nothing, would make them understand this.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by annemarie Yesterday at 11:17

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4716690/Trump-asks-pardon-powers-Russia-probe.html

[size=34]Trump 'asks about pardon powers': President is 'looking in to how he can protect himself, his family and his business from Russia probe and is digging up dirt on Mueller to discredit the investigation'[/size]

  • The Washington Post claims President Trump asked advisers about how to pardon himself, his family and his businesses on Thursday 

  • Separately, he has asked his lawyers to dig up dirt on former FBI Director Robert Mueller in an effort to discredit his Russia investigation, it was claimed 

  • At the same time, Mark Corallo, the spokesman from his legal team resigned

  • Corallo did not want to publicly criticize Mueller as instructed, sources said

  • Trump ordered a reshuffle of the team late on Thursday night as a result 

  • His long-serving personal lawyer Marc Kasowitz will see his responsibilities reduced as a result, it was claimed  


By JENNIFER SMITH FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 23:37 EDT, 20 July 2017 | UPDATED: 02:59 EDT, 21 July 2017

    




President Trump is inquiring about how to protect himself from the Russia probe, it was claimed on Thursday 
President Trump has asked advisors how he can pardon his family members, businesses and even himself to undercut the Russia investigation, it was claimed on Thursday. 
The Washington Post cites sources familiar with the matter who claimed the president is looking for ways to protect himself from the probe.
The claims coincided with separate remarks published in The New York Times which reports that Trump is on a mission to find dirt on special prosecutor Robert Mueller to discredit him.
Those sources said that the president's team is hard at work trying to prove conflicts of interest among Mueller's team of investigators and hopes to thwart the entire investigation by forcing those investigators to recuse themselves. 
Attorney Jay Sekulow, a member of the president's external legal team - which is not involved - told The Associated Press that the lawyers 'will consistently evaluate the issue of conflicts and raise them in the appropriate venue'.
The president has publicly stated his belief that Mueller's team is compromised. He is now relying on his team of lawyers and representatives to find damaging proof of his suspicion, the Times reported.
The request has however pushed Mark Corallo, the spokesman for the legal team going up against Mueller, to step down, the sources said.   
Corallo resigned from the team on Thursday, with insiders telling Politico there was too much 'in fighting' at the White House for him to do his job. He was also one of the few people in Trump's circle who were opposed to the notion of publicly criticizing Mueller. 

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It sparked a reshuffle within the legal team. CNN reports that as a result, Marc Kasowitz, Trump's long-serving personal lawyer who was spearheading it, is taking a less prominent role. 
Mueller, a former FBI director, was appointed to lead the probe into Russian collusion after the Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself from it and in the wake of Trump's firing of the most recent FBI director, James Comey. 
Trump said earlier this week in an interview with The New York Times that he would consider it a 'violation' if Mueller began probing his family's finances as part of his investigation. 


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Sources said the president had asked advisors about pardoning not only himself but members of his family and their businesses too. He is pictured with children Ivanka, Donald Jr., and Eric in January 



Trump has also asked his team of lawyers to dig up dirt on Robert Mueller (left), it was claimed. The request was reportedly enough to prompt the resignation of Mark Corallo (right), the spokesman for his legal team 


+3



Trump has also ordered a reshuffle of his legal team, it was claimed. As a result, Marc Kasowitz, his long-serving lawyer, will take a less prominent role 

Video playing bottom right...



The president previously denied attempting to influence the investigation when it was in the hands of former director Comey. Comey said he felt pressure to drop the probe and claimed that the president had told him to ease off disgraced National Security Adviser General Michael Flynn. 
Trump also said this week that he thought it was 'unfair' for Attorney General Sessions to have taken the role only to step away from the investigation afterwards. 
The president's surge in action on the subject comes as scrutiny surrounding a meeting his son, Donald Trump Jr., had last summer with Russian lawyers. 


+3


The surge in action from the president came as his son Donald Jr.'s meeting with Russian lawyers last year faced more scrutiny 
The secret meeting was arranged by a British PR executive who promised Don. Jr. dirt on Hillary Clinton. At the time, she was Trump's opponent in the race for the White House and the candidate's son jumped at the chance, saying in an email chain about the meeting: 'I love it'. 
When the meeting came to light earlier this month, it was first claimed by White House aides that the topic of the meeting was Russia's ban on American citizens adopting children from the country. 
Its true nature was only revealed by Donald Jr. in a bid to stop a newspaper from sharing it.
He posted a screenshot of the emails on his Twitter feed, sparking a feeding frenzy over whether it was proof of collusion between Russia and the Trumps. 
Donald Jr. has defended it since, going on Hannity to say while he wouldn't have taken the same offer again, it was an innocent decision to attend at the time. 
The president has supported him by saying that 'anyone in politics' would have taken the bait if presented with the same opportunity.  

[size=18]Ryan's advice for Trump: 'Let Robert Mueller do his job'



[/size]

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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Katiedot Yesterday at 13:34

Oooh, Mark Corallo is a little bit of gorgeous, isn't he?

Sorry, sorry, sorry! OT, I know.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie Yesterday at 14:18

Katiedot wrote:Oooh, Mark Corallo is a little bit of gorgeous, isn't he?

Sorry, sorry, sorry!  OT, I know.

Easy on the eye, no doubt. But it seems he also has a conscious.
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

Post by Donnamarie Yesterday at 15:06

Because Omega just released the video of Buzz Aldrin and George reminiscing about the space program, which Katie just posted today on another thread, I thought this was timely ... and hilarious!

Buzz Aldrin at White House for Relaunching of the National Space Council ...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2f5b7MlJqyg
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Re: The Serious Side - part 2

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