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The Serious Side

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 11:50

http://people.com/crime/north-carolina-republican-party-headquarters-firebombed/

Local North Carolina GOP Head quarters fire bombed.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 13:50

Yea I saw this story on the news. It's ugly and inexcusable. I'm surprised there haven't more incidences like this because there is so much anger in this election ... from both sides. Hopefully this is an isolated incident.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 14:04

Yes Donnamarie let's hope there are no copy cat incidents.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 14:30

Well, former New York City mayor Giulliani , has said that Trump is right and the election is being rigged against him.
In order for the election to be rigged it has to happen and they have to prove it was rigged. This is ridiculous why in the hell does he or any one else believe that all of America support him and wants him to be President

There is now more talk of violence if he does not win.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Mon Oct 17 2016, 14:35

And most important, nobody was injured...

We've had attacks to headquarters, cars and coaches of political parties as well. Even our mayor's family car was attacked (and they never found out who did it), and there were a quite some death threats to politicians, some resigned after their families were threatened as well. Female politicians who support the refugees politics, get mails that people wish they would be raped by a whole group of people...
I just read an interview with one of our leading politicians of the Green Party who said that she had never faced so much hatred, she gets about 100 threats every week, and that doesn't include posts on facebook or comments on articles. On October 3rd we celebrated the German Unity Day which always rakes place in another federal state, and thousands of people insulted the guests of honor, called them 'traitors to our country' etc. It took place in Dresden, and in that area of Germany many people demonstrate every week against our government's politics (which worked in 1989). Last week in the same area a Syrian refugee was said to have planned a terror attack on behalf of ISIS, the police wasn't able to catch him, he disappeared, and other Syrian refugees caught and tied him and called the police. He was set into prison and wasn't watched properly although the police said that he had planned a suicide attack on one of the Berlin airports. So he was able to hang himself in prison because nobody had told them, that somebody who's willing to bomb himself, might be suicidal Rolling Eyes.
So at least we won't have to find out who radicalized him because that happened in Germany...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Mon Oct 17 2016, 14:43

Annemarie,
does Guigliani think that the election will be rigged anyway - because that would mean it as well if Trump won...

And it seems to be part of politics now to float an accusation without any proves...

I've written it before - I read comments on websites where people said: "I'd vote for the AfD (the new right-wing party in Germany) and so would all my friends. So if they don't get at least 25 % of all votes at the next elections, I know that these elections will be rigged!" 
So they think they represent the average German and don't even think about that not everybody agrees with them...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 15:10

Guigliani  , is a republican and believes it is rigged so that  Donald dumb can't win. 

What is scary is that I believe Trumps idiots would riot and cause damage if he does not win, they are just 
that ignorant. And he will insight them to do so.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Mon Oct 17 2016, 16:20

Well, if Trump does incite his followers to riot maybe he'll finally end up where he belongs - in jail! He should have been locked up years ago for statutory rape and more recently for encouraging a foreign government's interference in our country's election - which, I believe, is treason. Unfortunately he can't be arrested for his worst crime, which is being a totally despicable, irredeemble human being.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 17:00

True Lizzy , this election is a mess.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by fava on Mon Oct 17 2016, 18:10

Carolhathaway,
There are 2 aspects to the "rigged" argument Trump is making. The first is that the media and the publicity is against him and reporting on him unfairly and negatively and that the party is not standing up for him.  The second is that there will be fraud at the actual polls with dead people voting, people voting more than once, voters being intimidated at polling places and illegal immigrants voting even though they are not citizens.  This has racist overtones as well because Trump is saying this is most likely to happen in largely african american districts (note his support among african americans is at something like 3%).  

This is very dangerous rhetoric and many people who might support him on the first argument do not agree with this (including his campaign manager and running mate!) and are telling people that they can trust the integrity of our physical voting process. Studies have borne out that in the past 20 years or so, voter fraud is basically a non-issue.  Such fraud as Trump is talking about would be a huge conspiracy.  Each of the 50 states is in charge of the polls in their state and have their own processes for registering and voting and for preventing any type of fraud.  I expect he will be asked again at the debate on Wednesday if he will accept the results of the election, win or lose. 

Interesting as there have also been indications that the Russians have tried to hack into state election operations and they support Trump (apparently).

Also at the same time, courts are striking down state laws that require photo ID to vote as this unfairly burdens minorities and lower income voters.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 19:04

I'll just add to all the good points made here that Trump knows he is going to lose. And the man hates to lose. Now he has a reason to explain his loss. It's all rigged. Im wondering if he will concede when he loses? Or will he go kicking and screaming .... to start his own media network.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Ramona_ on Mon Oct 17 2016, 19:24

Every morning I'm wondering what new stunt Trump has said or done. He is such a child. Pointing at everyone and saying it is not fair. I can't believe people will vote for him.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 19:33

Ramona, you can imagine how we feel in America. How could a man who has almost no redeeming qualities, who lacks intelligence and tells so many lies become a candidate for President? At least half of our country is in shock.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Ramona_ on Mon Oct 17 2016, 19:47

He must have some qualities, since he has been so successful as a business man. He has built office towers, hotels, casinos, golf courses and so on. But in the election he needs other qualities like communication skills, collaboration, managing conflicts and acting in national interest and he's not showing these things.


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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Mon Oct 17 2016, 19:55

Fava,

I forgot that you have to register to vote in the States.
That's the difference between different countries...

In Germany every citizen is registred in a population register which we have in every city or town. So everybody who fulfills the premises (you either have to be 16 or 18, have to be German or EU citizen, have to live in your country, your federal state or your town for at least three months - the premises depend on the election), gets an invitation to vote, and the list of tge voters is updated until one day ahead of the election. So nobody can vote for a person that died. You are also be asked for your passport or ID card to check if you're the person on the invitation (or you live in a village where the polling clerks know everybody who lives there). The biggest - theoretical - chances for rigging an election is by absentee voting...


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Post by ladybugcngc on Mon Oct 17 2016, 20:14

Ramona_ wrote:He must have some qualities, since he has been so successful as a business man. He has built office towers, hotels, casinos, golf courses and so on. But in the election he needs other qualities like communication skills, collaboration, managing conflicts and acting in national interest and he's not showing these things.
 
Well said Ramona.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Mon Oct 17 2016, 22:21

His "success" as a businessman includes several bankruptcies, failure to pay his bills and cheating subcontractors, loans that either we're not paid or had to be renegotiated so the banks could limit their losses, and several product line failures. He no longer has the capacity to build anything of his own. He is down to licensing his brand name to other companies that really develop real estate.

Donald Trump, with the exception of 'The Apprentice,' has not been successful in his own right for a very long time.

The man is living on smoke and mirrors money. Other truly wealthy people consider him a joke.

In other words, no redeeming qualities.

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Post by ladybugcngc on Mon Oct 17 2016, 22:26

Way2Old4Dis wrote:His "success" as a businessman includes several bankruptcies, failure to pay his bills and cheating subcontractors, loans that either we're not paid or had to be renegotiated so the banks could limit their losses, and several product line failures. He no longer has the capacity to build anything of his own. He is down to licensing his brand name to other companies that really develop real estate.

Donald Trump, with the exception of 'The Apprentice,' has not been successful in his own right for a very long time.

The man is living on smoke and mirrors money. Other truly wealthy people consider him a joke.

In other words, no redeeming qualities.

In other words Trump is not the problem.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Mon Oct 17 2016, 22:34

Ladybug what do you mean trump is not the problem? 

To me he would be the biggest problem America has ever had if he were to become President.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Mon Oct 17 2016, 22:41

Thank you, Annemarie. I was just about to ask the exact same thing.

Ladybug, you've been posting the same thing, over and over like a broken record, for days. In your view, if "Trump is not the problem", what is?

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by fava on Mon Oct 17 2016, 22:45

Well said, Way2.  I for one can't believe that Trump's blue collar supporters can support him after hearing that he told a mom and pop piano business that they could take $70,000 in payment on a $100,000 bill or go ahead and spend money on lawyers to sue him.  Just one of many small businesses stiffed and a prevailing business practice for Trump. 

It's petty of me I guess, but I hope his businesses really take a hit due to the damage he has done his "brand" and according the the NYT, they are already losing customers.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by ladybugcngc on Mon Oct 17 2016, 23:15

Trump has both success and failure in his life experience.  None of us know if he can put a team together to run the country.  I'm not a Trump supporter nor am I a Trump hater.  The Media which is ran by big business obviously does not want him in office.  

If in office will he do whatever big business wants him to do like the Bush and Obama administrations have done over the last 16 years, NO.  Can Trump stand against the opposition we face globally?  Will he allow 10,000 refugees from a country connected to the IS muderers of the San Bernardino mass murder.  NO

Can Hilary withstand the global opposition we face?  NO  

Can we have a miracle write candidate? 22 days of hope left.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Mon Oct 17 2016, 23:25

I think for me across the pond, the worst thing this man has done so far is to tell the terminally ill that he didn't care how ill they were, but that they had to hang on so that they could vote for him!!

The ultimate insult which absolutely reeks of selfishness, and totally lacks any form of thoughtfulness, compassion or caring.

His children must be so proud.........

And now some of his supporters are threatening to assassinate Hillary Clinton if she wins.  

She is without doubt the only grown up in the room.......

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue Oct 18 2016, 00:11

I happen to think that Donald Trump has a clinically diagnosable mental health problem, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

He is a verified compulsive liar. He is a shady and corrupt businessman. He has almost no knowledge of the necessary details of domestic or foreign policy, and is unwilling to learn. He incites violence. He is a racist. He is a sexual predator. He has the attention span of a toddler, and the temperament to match. But let's leave that aside for a moment.

Imagine that you are on the board of a leading company with international interests. You're looking for a CEO. An applicant comes in who has absolutely no experience in the industry, has demonstrable failures in his own field, and, even with a highly touted educational background, has the vocabulary of an eight-year-old. His interview indicates with no uncertainty that he is completely incapable of grasping the nuances of the business.

Would you hire that person? If your answer is any shade of a 'yes,' don't bother with any response because you are an apologist for a poser who has no place in serious national politics.

And I'll take it even further. If you would choose that person over a candidate with years of experience and success, coupled with a vast and deep knowledge of the relevant issues, or even if you would simply reject the experienced candidate because of a personal dislike, then you would not be acting in the best interests of your 'company.'

My biases are obvious. But there is absolutely nothing about Donald Trump that would recommend him to be the leader of this country. Nothing. Like her or not, Hillary Clinton is better prepared for the job than anyone who has run for it or held it.


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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue Oct 18 2016, 00:22

Oh. Two other points.

Trump has put together several iterations of a team that includes racists, alt-right sympathizers, abusers of women, and mercenaries for Russian interests. He has given no indication that he would choose any better if he were to be President. God forbid.

And the media. They helped create the monster by not doing their homework early enough, giving him free airtime for the sake of ratings, and generally shirking their responsibilities. They are now, finally, doing what they should have done from the beginning.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Tue Oct 18 2016, 00:49

Way2Old - To anyone who has read any of my posts here, you know what I think of Trump. What is truly galling right now is him claiming the election is rigged because the media are focused on him. Well, IMO, for the last year the coverage has been rigged  IN HIS FAVOR!

If the media hadn't been focused on every word out of his mouth for the last year because he's so "entertaining" to them, HE'D NEVER HAVE GOTTEN AS FAR AS HE HAS!! He'd have been left behind months ago. The only reason he has a following is because the media drowned us in him 24/7 and put all his crap out there for every fringe voter to latch onto. No real criticism, no real constructive analysis - just a year of "OMG, did he just say/do that?!!"

There's a lot of finger pointing going on - mostly at the members of the Republican party. I wonder when/if the talking heads and media pundits who brought us Trump in all his sleazy glory will take responsibility for what they've done? I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Tue Oct 18 2016, 02:10

I blame the people who support Trump first and foremost. Even when presented with the truth (which Way2 just extensively laid out) they refuse to admit that Trump is unfit for office. To me it shows a complete lack of rational thinking on their part. I cannot forgive the mean and hateful nature they exhibit towards those who don't agree with them. They are willing to blow up our democracy to satisfy their own anger and resentment towards the elite, the establishment, Washington, D.C. Take your pick.

The Republican Party gets second place for never getting anything done in Congress after making promises to their constituents that they couldn't keep. The party never addressed their enormous problems with minorities even when they promised to after the 2012 election.

The media gets third place for enabling this guy when he first announced his candidacy. It never called him out for the lies he told early on. It took the media almost a year to finally hold Trump accountable for his lies, insults and lack of any intelligent thinking.


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Post by ladybugcngc on Tue Oct 18 2016, 09:00

LizzyNY wrote:Thank you, Annemarie. I was just about to ask the exact same thing.

Ladybug, you've been posting the same thing, over and over like a broken record, for days. In your view, if "Trump is not the problem", what is?

The Problem-  The people who have been running the country for the past 16 years: U.S. Oil-Corporate Business.  
Way2Old - explained in great detail how Trump is not a member of this group.

The Problem Globally-  Those who seek to gain control of Global wealth; in connection with those who believe they are the righteous sent by god to avenge what they perceive to be unholy and people they perceive to be unrighteous.  Given this criminal ideology they will seek to avenge the death of Osama bin Ladan.  As long as President Obama is in office, our country is subject to this twisted/wicked criminal ideology.  Hilary is also in the cross-hairs because she was Secretary of State when Osama bin Ladan was killed.  If Hilary is elected, this problem confronting our country will not change.  

Trump is not my choice, however he is not connected to the problem. We need Presidential Leadership that is not obligated to corporate business, someone with fresh start regarding international relationships.  A write-in candidate will be by the people with no obligation to corporate business and no connection to Osama bin Ladan's death.  

21 days left to hope for a miracle.

I'm responding in the morning hours, please excuse any grammatical errors.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Sevens on Tue Oct 18 2016, 09:02

Lizzy why are you forcing the Trump supporters to abandon their votes?Apparently there're so many Trump fans who are normal, sensible and rational people and don't want to be labelled as idiots or crazy guys. Maybe it's this universal opposition against Trump that has been push them over the edge. I see some Trump fans say:"Used to laugh at Trump at the beginning, yet then I found all the media are bullying Trump as a policitally correct party which I couldn't stand."

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Tue Oct 18 2016, 11:49

The fact that they support him tells me they aren't rational , the man has no knowledge of politics or government, and thinks he can just bully people into doing what he wants. It doesn't work that way . As for the press bullying him nope they are finally telling people the truth about this egotistical idiot.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Tue Oct 18 2016, 12:10

Ladybug,
I agree with your opinion that Trump is not the problem, because that would mean that all problems would disappear if we (in fact you since I don't live in the States and am not a US citizen)voted for somebody else - which wouldn't happen.
But I also don't see him as the solution of these problems, because he also doesn't say anything about how he wants to solve the problems. Or do you really think that all problems in the States would be solved if Trump would build a wall at the Mexican border, would millions of illegal immigrants force to leave the country, would lower the taxes, would strength the infrastructure and also the military - wherever the money may come from, if the tax income would decrease. Maybe he would pay taxes himself?

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue Oct 18 2016, 13:31

ISIS/ISIL/Daesh will not change their ideology or actions based on the elected President of the United States, except to amplify the atrocities if there is a President who declares war against Islam, which Donald Trump does with his proposals and rhetoric.

Trump is not obligated to American corporate interests because he has made a mess of his own domestic business and is now so obligated to foreign money that his participation in international and tax policies pose a dangerous conflict of interest.

A write-in candidate would be a desperate and ill-considered move, the result of which would be putting forth a person who has not prepared for the job and has not been vetted by the press or public. How would that "miracle" make anything better?

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Tue Oct 18 2016, 15:39

Sevens wrote:Lizzy why are you forcing the Trump supporters to abandon their votes?Apparently there're so many Trump fans who are normal, sensible and rational people and don't want to be labelled as idiots or crazy guys. Maybe it's this universal opposition against Trump that has been push them over the edge. I see some Trump fans say:"Used to laugh at Trump at the beginning, yet then I found all the media are bullying Trump as a policitally correct party which I couldn't stand."
Sevens - I can't force anyone to abandon their vote - no matter who they're voting for. That's one of the basic rules of democracy. But I can state my opinion (another rule of democracy) that anyone who votes for someone because they think they're being bullied by the media should first pay attention to what the media is saying. Doesn't it strike them as odd that criticism of their candidate is coming from everywhere, and not just from the left or the establishment? Trump is being criticised by Republicans, Democrats, Independents, business people, celebrities, religious leaders....I could go on, but you get the idea. There are few people who feel that Trump represents the kind of person we want to represent us to the rest of the world.

To be honest, my problems with Trump have less to do with his policies (of which we know little, and what we do know is that they won't work) and has much more to do with his character. His conduct throughout his campaign has convinced me that he is a thoroughly despicable human being. I would never, under any circumstances, vote for him for anything.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by ladybugcngc on Tue Oct 18 2016, 16:42

Way2Old4Dis wrote:ISIS/ISIL/Daesh will not change their ideology or actions based on the elected President of the United States, except to amplify the atrocities if there is a President who declares war against Islam, which Donald Trump does with his proposals and rhetoric.

Trump is not obligated to American corporate interests because he has made a mess of his own domestic business and is now so obligated to foreign money that his participation in international and tax policies pose a dangerous conflict of interest.

A write-in candidate would be a desperate and ill-considered move, the result of which would be putting forth a person who has not prepared for the job and has not been vetted by the press or public. How would that "miracle" make anything better?

The IS/ISIS do NOT work alone, they have partners/evildoers who seek to control global wealth.  We need a President who understands the ideology, who the players are, and their intent.  Any President or system of Government willing to bring 10,000 refugees from a country or region that has shown grave hostility to their Nation is either connected to their cause or has no CLUE.   Neither you nor I can tell the difference between a Syrian refugee and a member of ISIS.  

Donald Trumps Islamic rhetoric is just that rhetoric, we have both the house and senate to balance what happens internationally.  War against Islam can mean many things including stopping refugees from hostile countries/regions, from entering our country.  Note:  According to Amal Clooney there are 1.5 billion Muslims world wide.  Syrian refugees are better placed in countries where they don't seek to murder people just for the hell of it, countries that share their same core values.

There is no threat more dangerous to our country than those who seek to avenge what they perceive to be unjust, unrighteous, and/or unholy.  

The United States press is controlled by U.S. Oil-Corporate business;  they need their jobs and would NEVER give a write-in candidate time in the press;  NOT even for ratings.  

There are candidates qualified to be president, who are NOT obligated to corporate business, who don't stand in the cross-hairs of international conflict,  willing and QUALIFIED to take on the presidency.  A write-in candidate can only win if seasoned, informed, and voters educated to the process go to the polls.  There is no better vetting of a president than a write in candidate voted in by the people.  

That miracle will show the 1% who seek to control by wicked and twisted means,

the 99% are seasoned, informed, and educated enough to take a stand regarding their own destiny.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue Oct 18 2016, 17:32


Donald Trumps Islamic rhetoric is just that rhetoric, we have both the house and senate to balance what happens internationally.  War against Islam can mean many things including stopping refugees from hostile countries/regions, from entering our country.  Note:  According to Amal Clooney there are 1.5 billion Muslims world wide.  Syrian refugees are better placed in countries where they don't seek to murder people just for the hell of it, countries that share their same core values.

Rhetoric is how ISIS/ISIL/Daesh recruits and incites. There is no "just rhetoric" with them.

I do not equate either "Syrian" or "Muslim" with "terrorist." Apparently, you do. This is the core of our difference on this issue.

I know several Muslim people. My sister is Muslim. Their "values" are the same as mine. They want a safe, progressive, and healthy world for themselves and their children. They want to worship in peace. They want stability and security in whatever place they call home.

If 99% of the citizenry were "seasoned, informed, and educated," there wouldn't be a 40% voter base supporting Trump.

For the record, this is the point where I fall back on the COH adage: Agree to disagree.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Tue Oct 18 2016, 17:59

Ladybug, I strongly disagree with your opinion that the Syrian people should be considered terrorists or seek to harm our country. Terrorists and potential terrorists exist in every race and ethnicity. I would never condemn a whole ethic group for the actions of a few. That is one of the issues facing Americans in this election. Trump wants to ban all Muslims from entering our country. That goes against our Constituion. And from my of view completely unethical.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Tue Oct 18 2016, 18:24

ladybugcngc wrote:  We need a President who understands the ideology, who the players are, and their intent.  Any President or system of Government willing to bring 10,000 refugees from a country or region that has shown grave hostility to their Nation is either connected to their cause or has no CLUE.      To follow your logic, Hillary Clinton, who as Secretary of State, has extensive knowledge of the situation   - or anyone else who has government experience - is a tool of ISIS. And anyone who isn't a politician  but wants to save innocent people - doesn't have a clue. So the only smart person is the inexperienced, hard-hearted fearmonger?  
Neither you or I can tell the difference between a Syrian refugee and a member of ISIS
      That's true. So why do you feel comfortable condemning all the innocent people in the war-torn region for fear that a few might be terrorists? Do you think future generations will look more kindly on us if we don't help? You'd just be giving them more reasons to hate.

  Syrian refugees are better placed in countries where they don't seek to murder people just for the hell of it, countries that share their same core values. What a horrible thing to say about an entire people! Do you really believe all Syrian refugees are murderers? It sounds as if you believe that everyone from that part of the world is a part of ISIS.

There is no threat more dangerous to our country than those who seek to avenge what they perceive to be unjust, unrighteous, and/or unholy.  
Except for the destruction of our society from the inside by folks who are trying to "protect" it.

We have always been a nation of immigrants. We all came from somewhere else. If the doors had been locked against your ancestors because some of them might have been unsavory, where would you be now? Not only, as Donnamarie said, is it against our Constitution to ban refugees  but it is also against the basic tenets of almost every major religion to ignore the suffering of others.



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ladybugcngc

Post by ladybugcngc on Tue Oct 18 2016, 18:54

Way2old -"  I do not equate either "Syrian" or "Muslim" with "terrorist." Apparently, you do. This is the core of our difference on this issue.  


My response:  I didn't "equate" either to "terroist".  I "associate" both Syrian and Muslim as people who could be associated to ISIS/IS: "a twisted wicked group who believe they are the righteous sent by god to avenge what they perceive to unholy, unrighteous, unjust".  Like the murderers associated with the IS who who committed MASS MURDER in San Bernardino.  You used the term terrorist, not I.  


A Muslim is a person believing in and consciously following Islam.  my source:  http://www.enkivillage.com/islam-vs-muslim.html

Is your sister Syrian?  Truth be told your sister or any Muslim could be a member of ISIS/IS and you not know.  They hide in plain sight and lay in wait to commit murder.

The press controls the polls.  The poll source is rarely given, it could be 100 people, 40 of which are Donald Trump's family and friends.  Unfortunately we just don't know.  I have inquired (the press) to obtain a poll source and it was not given to me.

Way2old I stand with in agreement: we can agree to disagree.
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Donnamarie - Any president including Trump has to work with the house and the senate. Drastic measures like banning all Muslims must have the approval of Congress and more than likely will never happen. 

The IS/ISIS is an established group that includes Syrians and other people from that region.  The IS/ISIS  have claimed responsibility for MASS MURDER committed in our country.  Leadership over our country MUST take measures that INCLUDE the safety of the people living here. 

 The TRUTH is any Syrian refugee could a member of the IS/ISIS and neither you, I, and/or  the clueless leadership that would bring 10,000 Syrian refugees can distinguish the difference.  

We are a compassionate country, finding countries where Syrians don't seek to murder the people just for the hell of it, countries that share their core values is a good solution for all.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Tue Oct 18 2016, 19:25

Ladybug,
in Germany we have hundreds of thousands of refugees who at least come from muslim countries. I don't feel less secure than before. Our secret service has said that they prevented some possible terror attacks, but our Secretary  of State doesn't tell any details. So we don't know how serious this is. 
If you think about the attacks and most attacks in France, they were committed by muslims who had already lived in these countries for decades. Most refugees from Syria went to neighboring countries like Lebanon or Jordan. Many other muslim countries are very poor - how many refugees can they afford?  For how long? If you think about Turkey where everything is wrapping, is it sensible to force them to hist more than the two million refugees they are hosting already? Of course other muslim countries like Saudi Arabia should host more refugees, but can they be forced to do so? And since Saudi Arabia is the center of ISIS, what do you think will happen there?
We also have radical imams who are German, don't have an Arabic background and who pray hate. 

If the richest continents and countries refuse to take muslim refugees, which signal does this send to them? We don't care about you! For us it doesn't matter if you survive or die! If your kids starve or be bombed, if they'll ever be able to read or write.

I know quite some muslims, none of them is radicale in any way. My husband helps young Syrian refugees, they only hope to be able to go on with their living, to continue to go to university, most if them want to go back to their country once there's peace. They all are thankful that tgey are able to live without fear, that they survive. I don't think it helps to suspect all muslims generally. Of course I wish they'd all be honest, but that's what I'd expect from everybody, irrespective of their nationality or religion.


Last edited by carolhathaway on Tue Oct 18 2016, 19:28; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added text)

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ladybugcngc

Post by ladybugcngc on Tue Oct 18 2016, 19:48

carolhathaway wrote:Ladybug,
in Germany we have hundreds of thousands of refugees who at least come from muslim countries. I don't feel less secure than before. Our secret service has said that they prevented some possible terror attacks, but our Secretary  of State doesn't tell any details. So we don't know how serious this is. 
If you think about the attacks and most attacks in France, they were committed by muslims who had already lived in these countries for decades. Most refugees from Syria went to neighboring countries like Lebanon or Jordan. Many other muslim countries are very poor - how many refugees can they afford?  For how long? If you think about Turkey where everything is wrapping, is it sensible to force them to hist more than the two million refugees they are hosting already? Of course other muslim countries like Saudi Arabia should host more refugees, but can they be forced to do so? And since Saudi Arabia is the center of ISIS, what do you think will happen there?
We also have radical imams who are German, don't have an Arabic background and who pray hate. 

If the richest continents and countries refuse to take muslim refugees, which signal does this send to them? We don't care about you! For us it doesn't matter if you survive or die! If your kids starve or be bombed, if they'll ever be able to read or write.

I know quite some muslims, none of them is radicale in any way. My husband helps young Syrian refugees, they only hope to be able to go on with their living, to continue to go to university, most if them want to go back to their country once there's peace. They all are thankful that tgey are able to live without fear, that they survive. I don't think it helps to suspect all muslims generally. Of course I wish they'd all be honest, but that's what I'd expect from everybody, irrespective of their nationality or religion.
You might want to duck.  I think you should tell your experience to the victims of the San Bernardino Mass Murder.  Maybe they extend to you greater insight into the risk.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Tue Oct 18 2016, 20:18

Ladybug,
I'm not naive.
I know that there are muslim terrorists, and it's horrible what they did in San Bernardino.
So, since the male assassin was born in Chicago, how do you want to protect your country? Ban all muslims from the States? Even those whose families live there for generations? What about those who might convert to islam?

In the past there have been many rampages from Americans, from christians, jews or atheists. In your country 89 people are killed by guns - every day! And not everybody who shoots, is a muslim...
As far as I know your constitution guarantees freedom of religion.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by fava on Tue Oct 18 2016, 20:52

Ladybug, 
I will also have to agree to disagree with you.  I am ashamed that my country (US) has taken in so few refugees and done so little to alleviate the suffering of innocent people, many of them women, children and families.  I don't understand what "core values" you feel these refugees do not share with US citizens.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Tue Oct 18 2016, 21:09

You cannot paint all the refugees with the same brush , not all of them are terrorist and hate America. That is not fair to those who simply want to live in peace.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Tue Oct 18 2016, 21:27

ladybug - I don't know what religion you follow - and I don't want to. It's none of my business. I would only suggest that whatever it is, you go back to whatever holy book you believe in and see what it says about caring for those less fortunate than yourself.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue Oct 18 2016, 21:41

"You might want to duck." "Is your sister Syrian?"

What. The. Fuck.

This is precisely how xenophobia festers, and allows demagogues with simplistic and fact-averse 'answers' to come into power.

This is the United States. We get a lot of shit wrong, but one of the things we consistently do right is NOT allow ourselves to be sucked into war over religion, especially when the real enemy does not practice the true vision of the particular religion.

And I'm feeling the last bits of my patience and tact slip away, so I have to be done with this topic.

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ladybugcngc

Post by ladybugcngc on Tue Oct 18 2016, 22:39

Carol:  I'm not sure if you define ISIS/IS as terrorist.  I define ISIS/IS and their partners of evildoers as twisted/wicked people who operate under a twisted/wicked ideology.  Understanding the male murderer was born in Chicago only proves my point any Muslim can be a member of ISIS/IS. 


U.S. citizens have constitutional rights.  I can only hope Muslims in our country connected to the ISIS/IS will be identified before they attempt to carry out murder.  In the United States we have murderous rampages, however, to bring 10,000 refugees from Syria or any region who is has  proven to be hostile to our country including an ESTABLISHED group (ISIS/IS) that have murdered citizens of your country is UNTHINKABLE.


Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion.  Our constitution does not extend the right to kill/murder people based on religious beliefs (ideology) perceived to be unholy, unrighteous, or unjust.


Fava's quote:  “ I don't understand what "core values" you feel these refugees do not share with US citizens.”
My response:  Jihad as a religious option..


Anniemarie:  I’m speaking about refugees from Syria and other countries from that region, who have PROVEN to be hostile and claimed responsibility for mass murder (Muslim-jihadists) that has taken place in our country.  


Lizzy:   I am a God fearing Bible Believer, we are a compassionate country. Finding countries where Syrians don't seek to murder the people just for the hell of it, countries that share their core values (including jihad) is a good solution for all.


I stand in agreement we can agree to disagree.  21 day write in hope days.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Tue Oct 18 2016, 23:26

ladybugcngc wrote:


Our Constitution guarantees freedom of religion.  Our constitution does not extend the right to kill/murder people based on religious beliefs (ideology) perceived to be unholy, unrighteous, or unjust.

Our Constitutional rights also say that we are innocent until proven guilty.
No one in our country has the right to kill anyone else for any reason except in self defense - and even then it has to be proven in a court of law. Just because you think someone might do somethng doesn't mean they will.


You say you are a God fearing Bible Believer. I may be wrong, but I think you're saying you're a Christian. If that's the case, I suggest you ask yourself "What would Jesus do?". Following his words, you can't go wrong.



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ladybugcngc

Post by ladybugcngc on Tue Oct 18 2016, 23:44

Lizzy;  "Just because you think someone might do somethng doesn't mean they will."


My response:  I'm not the one saying "they will".  The IS/ISIS are the dictating their own actions.  ISIS/IS are saying they will.  Their Ideology states they will.  Their action have proven they will.  

Lizzy, please tell me what would Jesus do.  Exactly what have I said that is NOT Bible Based?

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Alisonfan on Wed Oct 19 2016, 00:19

Subject to conflict to talk about.Hard to see end to this.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by fava on Wed Oct 19 2016, 00:23

Ladybug, I find it objectionable when you state "Syrians seek to murder people," when that blanket statement is not true of the vast majority of Syrians (or Muslims for that matter).  Your inclusion of violent jihad as a core muslim value is like saying the inquisition was indicative of core Christian values.

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Re: The Serious Side

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