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The Serious Side

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The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 16 2016, 13:21

I'm starting this new topic so we can discuss the serious side of issues that I guess shouldn't be talked about in the Chit Chat thread.

Maybe one of the mods can move the June Chit Chat comments on the recent terror attack and the election/gun discussion to this thread.

Thanks!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 16 2016, 13:34

Thanks Donna!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 16 2016, 21:40

I read this afternoon that a British member of Parliament, Jo Cox, was killed by an attacker. A young woman too. Awful. Married with two young daughters. The country must be in shock.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 16 2016, 21:41

Today a British MP was killed. She was 41 years old, had two little children and was against the Brexit. It's rumored that the murderer killed her because he's for the Brexit.
If it's true - or apart from that:
I somehow have the feeling that many people have lost the ability or the will to discuss issues by sticking to facts and trying to persuade others on that base AND accepting other opinions. That's the base of our discussions here on COH, and in general we do accept that we don't always agree.
To me this also has to do with respect.

But if I listen to discussions or read comments on the internet, for many people there's just one right opinion, and that's theirs. And everybody else is wrong. And if the other one doesn't agree, he's insulted or called  names.
That's the same in comments about George and his quotes on Trump: George is not the most important person in the States (my guess), and that's his personal opinion people do agree or disagree with. And that's it in my opinion, but others seem to feel the need to insult him or appeal to boycott his movies.

What do you think? Has our behaviour changed or just my perception?

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 16 2016, 21:42

Donna,
sorry, didn't check your post while I wrote mine...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 16 2016, 21:57

carolhathaway we must have posted at the same time.  The same story.

You ask a question that doesn't have an easy answer.

I think internet discussions in particular can be really divisive because of anonymity.  Twitter has had a hand in it too.  Social media in general has given people license to say whatever they want to say, insult, bully, etc.  Civility has taken a backseat to "in your face" statements and worse.  But that is just one reason.  

And nobody on the internet uses facts to drive their points.  It's just how they see something or someone and that totally influences their comments. Criticism is usually based on their perceptions of the reality.

i do think a lot more people in our world have become hardened in their views. For a variety of reasons. I see that in our politics all the time.


Last edited by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 16 2016, 22:03; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added text)

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 16 2016, 22:12

Last fall a woman who ran for mayor in Cologne, was attacked during her dampaign. She was stabbed and was elected while she was in coma, fortunately she survived. The motive was that she worked for the local government in Cologne and was in charge for refugees in the city. The man who attacked her, wanted to protest against refugees, so he decided to kill her...
So if the man killed Jo Fox today because she was against the Brexit, I do see quite some similarities...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 16 2016, 22:17

I think the internet and social medias in particular, have led to a loss of inhibitions.
We've discussed it here: I don't write what I wouldn't also say face to face, others disagree on that.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Thu Jun 16 2016, 22:53

Gosh, several hundred points here!

Random couple of thoughts coming up.

I think our levels of concentration have gone down overall - what the advertisers always want of course to get their message across - and so comments online on articles in titles like Pop sugar and the Fail seem to be equally shallow..but if you look at comments in something like the Washington Post or Time they're very different and reflect the articles in those and similar publications.

Similarly cable news and their soundbites are shallow, attractive in many ways as opposed to in-depth news programmes.

Twitter has the capacity to be brilliant (the limit on characters can be testing) and at least you can select who you read! Never liked Facebook.

The Duke of Cambridge has given a speech about cyber bullying today. 

The death of poor Jo Cox, MP, is inexplicable and devastating. 

And it is known that the man who killed her said repeatedly 'Britons first'. 

Jo did a huge amount for Syrian refugees and we may find that this is related. Many people in this country are in need of what we call 'social housing' ie town council owned property that is rented cheaply to those who can't afford to rent or buy private property. And some people resent the fact that some of these properties are given to immigrants instead. Or that is what they perceive. 

I don't know if this is the case here. I am just surmising. But absolutely nothing justifies what happened.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Thu Jun 16 2016, 23:04

I can't copy but an article said he had mental illnes 


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-mp-everything-we-know-so-far-about-thomas-mair/



I guess it's needed to put an eye on those ppl too

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Wed Jun 22 2016, 22:51

To those of us in the US who have been frustrated and disgusted by our government's handling of gun control (or lack thereof) we finally have someone to be proud of. Rep. John Lewis (D.,Ga.) led a group of Democratic congressmen and women in a sit-in in Congress to force a vote on gun control. Lewis' words to Congress were brilliant and inspiring. The Republican response to shut down the session and, therefore, media coverage, was cowardly and shameful. Listen to Lewis' speech wherever you can and then contact your representatives to insist they support him!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 23 2016, 01:10

Thanks Lizzy for mentioning this sit-in led by Congressman John Lewis.  On the gun issue the Congress has failed us time and time again.  So proud of these Members of Congress for pushing this issue forward.  

Congressman Lewis has been a leader for civil rights all his life.  He was at the March on Selma back in the 1960s and was beaten up (resulting in a fractured skull) by the Alabama police as he and others crossed the famous bridge.  This infamous day became known as Bloody Sunday.


Last edited by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 23 2016, 01:12; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correct spelling)

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jun 23 2016, 01:20

For anyone interested, the sit-in continues and is being broadcast on C-SPAN via Periscope Video from Rep. Scott Peters of California. It's a living civics lesson and should be seen by every US citizen as an example of democracy in action.

I

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 23 2016, 06:57

Thanks Lizzy,
that's so true!
I just found a little video on youtube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m92OrbZzvBM

I'm really happy that not all Republicans agree on unlimited gun possession...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jun 23 2016, 11:50

Carolhathaway - There are a few Republicans who support some kind of gun control, but the video you posted is of the Democrats in the House of Representatives staging a sit-in to force the Republicans to a vote.

The Republican leadership refused to even discuss the issue of gun control. They turned off the mics and cameras, declared the session adjourned until after the July 4th holiday and ran away home like the callous cowards they are. What we are seeing  on C-SPAN, via the social media accounts of various congressmen, is the Democratic party's determined attempt to get the people mobilized to put pressure on the government to finally do something to end this crisis.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Thu Jun 23 2016, 12:27

Full of admiration for them, Lizzy, and a brilliant, peaceful way to get things moving. 


I hope they keep doing it.........

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 23 2016, 12:35

Lizzy,
sorry for posting the wrong video!
I was in a hurry this morning to go to work and somehow didn't really check it!
But I just read that the sit-in got some coverage on German news websites...


Last edited by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 23 2016, 12:40; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added text)

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 23 2016, 13:11

Yes the Republicans have left the building. There will be no vote. But this sit-in sends a strong message to the American people who support changes in our gun laws.
And though most likely there will be no vote this year Americans have a voice by voting for candidates this November who support gun control. This becomes a great issue for candidates (mostly Democrats) to run on.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Thu Jun 23 2016, 17:43

This afternoon a man kidnapped people in a cinema in a small German town, and as soon as that happened, there were news on social medias about an islamic assassination and more than 50 injured people.

Our TV news reported about it without any wild guesses, they even dared to say: "We don't know anything yet and have to wait until we get  informations by the police."
Now the police confirmed that the man took hostages and threatened them with a weapon so he was shot. He seemed to have been bemused, nobody was hurt, and there are no signs for a terror attack or an islamic background.

That's how I want to be informed: Wait until they are really able to give informations, no speculations...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jun 23 2016, 17:55

I was watching this story on tv. I had just turned it on at the point when the media could report definitively that there were no injuries and the gunman had been caught. Thank goodness.



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Re: The Serious Side

Post by What Would He Say on Fri Jun 24 2016, 02:18

#upallnight

It's not lost on me....that earlier today the EU eased up on Greece....giving cheaper money.

This is what happens when you treat the weakest link like they did.....No win yet, omg this has proven that Greece was the point at which the EU family started to brake up.....win or loose in UK, one after another will want referendum.....Democracy is one thing, but common decency wins every time!!!

how we treat our weakest member indicates the power of our unity .....and the parity of esteem we hold for each and every family member....

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Fri Jun 24 2016, 03:19

#upallnighttoo

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Fri Jun 24 2016, 08:58

I'm shocked

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Fri Jun 24 2016, 10:37

So am I!!!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Fri Jun 24 2016, 11:57

me too Sad

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Fri Jun 24 2016, 12:51

WOW! Just woke to see the UK voted to leave the EU. I thought the vote would be close, but I didn't think it would go this way. To my friends across the pond, how do you think this is going to affect you personally? And what about Scotland? They voted to stay in. Can they act on their own?

I'm curious what the deciding factor was for most people. Was it economic, cultural, something else? Whatever the motivation, I hope this works out well for you in the UK.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Fri Jun 24 2016, 13:16

Stunned by the news.  I really thought the vote would go the other way.  By a slim margin.  Worried about the repercussions.  Especially with other countries of the EU who will want to follow the same path as the UK.  And wonder how many who voted to leave did it as more of a protest vote because of their anger and discontent with the state of their economy and immigration.  Will there be regret in the not too distant future?

Trump is in Scotland right now.  He had a press conference.  Among the comments he also said Obama should not have said that the UK should remain in the EU.  And he claims that nobody likes Obama and if Obama had not said what he said in London that the UK voters probably would have voted the other way.  Yea, he said that.


Last edited by Donnamarie on Fri Jun 24 2016, 13:17; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correct spelling)

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Fri Jun 24 2016, 13:53

DM - Trump says a lot of things. Most of them are, like today's remarks. a crock. Did you notice he praised the UK's exit from the EU in the one part of the UK that voted to stay in? He's an idiot.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Fri Jun 24 2016, 14:11

Right, here are a few random thoughts in no particular order.

Many many constituencies had a very narrow margin for leave. So it was closer than it looks.

For many many years in this country the EU has been looked at by quite a few as 'a gravy train'. Unelected officials with chauffeur driven cars - and sometimes two chauffeurs! At lease 70,000 of them earn more than our own Prime Minister.

The timing of this also means it's been like a mid term election for some who have grievances. Unfortunately if they have private pensions it may not look too good for a while.

Many many concerns about unbridled immigration - and many say that's it such a tiny country and we're full. (We are half the size of France). Just recently some schools have found that they have pupils from as many as  20 different countries and those children have English as their second language so everyone of them gets extra support all funded by the state system.........

There is an element and some would say in our nature who do not like being told what to do by another country be it President Obama, Merkel, because it's thought that we wouldn't do that.

In some way it's been a frustrating campaign for many. Questions I would have liked answered weren't because as a nation we are (were) dependent on 27 other countries to make that decision............

This is just a flavour. #shocked

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Fri Jun 24 2016, 21:03



take a look

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Fri Jun 24 2016, 21:29

Very interesting, what Nigel Farage said!
And Boris Johnson said that there's no need to hurry to leave. What does he want? It takes two years anyway, so he wants to leave in five years? Or ten? That's crap!

You know what I realized?
The problem with this campaign was that the 'leave campaign' was based on feelings, emotions and fear. Wheras the 'stay campaign' was based on facts.
And it's difficult to answer feelings with facts.

And that's exactly what Trump does with his campaign, and what many right-wing politicians in Europe do: They cause fear, tell you that everything which doesn't work is other people's fault, and that all your problems will be solved if these people are not in the position to decide anything anymore.

It worked in the UK...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Fri Jun 24 2016, 21:55

I feel that I'm really not in a position to take a side here but in general this fear of immigrants insidiously taking over is running rampant throughout western countries.
I realize the refugee crisis is fueling many negative emotions. The U.S. isn't bringing in that many Syrian refugees but illegal Mexicans and Muslims in general are the scapegoat for our economic and security issues. Trump is certainly exploiting the immigration issue here to stoke fear and hate.

Watching the news today there was a young woman interviewed on the street in London and I was quite surprised at what she said. She was asked about how she voted and she said she is now regretting her decision to vote to leave. She said her decision was based on emotions and she wish she could change her vote. I'm not sure if she is in a distinct minority or not
but with the world's reaction to the UK's voting to leave the EU there may be many who are regretting their "leave" vote.

Isn't Boris going to run for Prime Minister?


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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Sat Jun 25 2016, 01:29

already 


Regretting


http://www.people.com/article/brexit-voters-regret-uk-leave-eu


[size=42]Brexit Regret: Meet the Britons Who Voted to Leave the EU – and Immediately Wished They Hadn't[/size]

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Sat Jun 25 2016, 01:34

Slow Friday night.  I'm pretty much glued to the tv watching all the discussion and debate as to what happened today.  It's all really really interesting and the comparisons to what may happen in the U.S. are a bit scary.  

BTW I misspoke on Boris Johnson.  Realize the PM is an appointment.  So if his party gets the majority in Parliament then he would be appointed? Right?

What Nigel Farage said was surprising.  I've heard today that there was a lot of misinformation and distortions by those who were campaigning for "leave".

its me, thanks for the link. I've heard the same from tv programs I've been watching this evening. I wonder how widespread this feeling is???


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Re: The Serious Side

Post by party animal - not! on Sat Jun 25 2016, 03:40

Funny how some people talk about collective responsibility and don't think it applies to them, isn't it?

Even more astonishing - they're happy to admit it!

Can't believe people did not think the stock exchange and financial markets would react. But maybe they just didn't think.

Entirely possible there could be a similar reaction if/when Trump gets in!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Fingersandtoes on Sat Jun 25 2016, 04:56

I'm so shocked by this vote. There will be long term consequences voters didn't think of. A lot of misinformation was fed, and now the eyes are opening. There's a lot of hope for 'goodwill' from 'leavers' they wish to receive from EU, which won't happen. Wishing for free trade to continue, wishing for EU funding, wishing for no change in easy border access and so on. All that will change. EU will use this as an example. It'll be a clear cut and GB is out completely. I heard a lot of 'The long term effects will be great, short term will be hard' and can't but roll my eyes.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Sat Jun 25 2016, 10:07

Betraied

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by annemarie on Sat Jun 25 2016, 12:32

That is the fear with Trump people who are afraid will vote for him which is horrible , but even worse are the one's who don't like Hillary so will vote for him. My daughter has heard people say oh I don't like Hillary so I'm voting for Trump.
They don't seem to get they don't have to vote why bother.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jun 25 2016, 13:04

annemarie wrote:
They don't seem to get they don't have to vote why bother.
The reason we're in this mess without a better choice of candidates is because so many "voters" say "Why bother?". If you expect any kind of change you need to realise that you have to vote - especially in your local and state elections - because that's where most fledgling politicians cut their teeth. You have to get and stay informed about who is running and what they stand for.

If it comes to a point where you dislike all your choices, choose the one who most closely represents your values. Do not throw your vote away out of spite. Do not vote for someone you hate, or avoid voting entirely, to send a message to your party that you don't like their candidate. You are guaranteeing the election of someone who, until the next election cycle, will do their damndest to work against your interests and you will have no one to blame but yourself because you abdicated your responsibility as a citizen.

We choose our elected officials by a "one man-one vote" system. If you don't vote you have chosen not to participate, so STFU!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Fingersandtoes on Sat Jun 25 2016, 13:12

LizzyNY,

Well said! There's this weird apathy toward voting, and thinking it won't matter, when especially in local elections it can be matter of a few votes, and they all count. Just in this UK Brexit election 75% of 18-24 year olds were wanting to stay, but 30% of that age group didn't vote. And it's their future on line, it should matter to the younger generation the most.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Sat Jun 25 2016, 14:25

You are absolutely right


Read that 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/leavers-take-control


Because it really seems "winners" felt guilty too


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And then

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Sat Jun 25 2016, 15:40

Saying your vote doesn't count is a slap in the face to our democracy.  If you are lucky enough to live in a country where you get to vote it is your responsibility.  No excuses.

The other problem is how uniformed or misinformed our country is on the issues.   The public's positons on policy are formed by catchy slogans or news headlines.  Or worse from inflammatory statements made by candidates.  We have two presidential candidates.  One who early on was talking at length about thoughtful and informed ideas but was criticized by some media of boring her audience.  Whereas her opposition has spent the majority of his rallies taunting, bullying and using rhetoric to rally support and get attention.  And he had lied essentially throughout his campaign.  But his supporters seem immune or don't care to know the facts.  Were Brits equally as naive or complacent to the facts?

People hear what they want to hear.  People can be lazy and don't take time to understand the basics of important issues.  Our country is complicated.  The issues are complicated but everyone at the very least should inform themselves of a candidate's stance on those policies important to them before they support them.

Grassroots politics is where it's at.  That's what will change the face of our Congress in the U.S.  The Tea Party back in 2010 changed the face of our Congress.  Extremist ideas paralyzed Washington.  So it's up to more moderate candidates running in state and local
elections to flip us from a do nothing to a do something Congress.

I wish that somehow there could be a revote in the UK.  David Miliband was on a political show last night.  He said what happened in the UK is a disaster.  He said in essence whereas Brits thought they were kicking the establishment by voting to "leave" that instead they have kicked themselves.


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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Sat Jun 25 2016, 16:40

so sad

and more sad no one was able to EXPLAIN the right way


into USA I thinks you  need
endorsements
everyone who can 
HAVE TO alert people about consequences 
without screaming but reaching the more ppl they can and painting consequences

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Sat Jun 25 2016, 16:41

Yes, I read quotes like: "I thought my vote wouldn't count, thought that the majority would vote 'stay' anyway" or "I just wanted to vote against Cameron, not against the EU".
How naive can people be? We're all old enough to know what happens when people vote AGAINST one politician instead of FOR a certain politic.
Misinformation is certainly another issue... but it was discussed in the British medias as well, so to be shocked and have never heard of it - would be like vote for Trump and not knowing about his opinions on Mexicans, immigrants in general and women. Ignorance doesn't help in the end...

Donna,
a revote would lead to another result, I guess. But that isn't democracy if you vote again  because you didn't get the expected result...
I remember that some years ago Switzerland had a referendum (they have quite a few of them) about whether new mosques should be built or not (a - at least - very conservative party initialized this referendum) and the majority voted against new mosques. We've got friends in Switzerland, and we discussed this. They said that they were shocked by the vote, and many people who didn't mind having mosques and muslims in their country, just didn't vote at the referendum because they thought that it was so stupid to deny their right for their religion, that they thought nobody would vote against new mosques.
And that's the problem about referendums: you have to accept the result...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Sat Jun 25 2016, 16:53

I think
such issue
which passes over GB borders 
can start sort of a "run to exit" 

so it can carry a big big danger to EU


and 
a bunch of voters (0,008% of all,  I guess I read) can't destroy  all


too little number 
of UNAWARE PPL can't destroy  all


(anyway surely this shock was good for EU, but this is the only good thing, I fear)

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by it's me on Sat Jun 25 2016, 16:57

and I guess also
any "post exit" strategy was told


those 3 leaders (leaders??) were.....  silent

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jun 25 2016, 17:34

Donnamarie - I think that, in the US, we became complacent and lazy. Most of us were doing ok. Even if it was a struggle at times we knew we had it better than most of the world and we were proud to be American citizens. I think because we were doing so well we began to focus on acquiring non-essentials - on living the good life - until now it's all that matters to many of us. How else explain the Kardashian phenomenon, where a mother pimped out her own child for fame and money?

I think a big part of the problem is that we no longer value education. We value a college degree as a means to getting a good job and making a lot of money, but we don't value the acquisition of knowledge for its own sake. We don't value rigorous effort in the pursuit of knowledge and we are teaching our kids that anything that takes work is a waste of time if you can find a shortcut or get enough followers online.

Ask any high school student about the Constitution - or the Declaration of Independence - or the 3 branches of the government and their powers- and be prepared for a blank stare and a confused expression. They not only don't know, they don't see why they have to know. "It's boring!"

Until we start actually teaching again and not pandering to the test culture our kids will continue to learn nothing other than how to fill in bubbles on a grid. They won't know how lucky they are to live here or how they, as citizens, have as many responsibilities as they have rights - and if they don't honor their responsibilities, their rights will soon be gone.

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jun 25 2016, 17:40

Just saw an AFP article on Bing that says 1.2 MILLION signatures have already been collected on a petition on the official government website, calling for a BREXIT revote. Only 100,000 signatures are needed for the matter to be brought to the floor! This is getting really interesting!

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by Donnamarie on Sat Jun 25 2016, 19:16

Lizzy said "we don't value the acquisition of knowledge for its own sake".  That is sooooo true. I see it especially in my children's generation.  There is a knowledge deficit in our country and it hurts us as a society.

Yep I also heard about this petition.  But I suspect it would be next to impossible to do a revote.  And like carolh said undemocratic.  Unless there is some loophole that could be found to justify a revote.  Sigh ...

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Re: The Serious Side

Post by carolhathaway on Sat Jun 25 2016, 19:31

Lizzy,
I absolutely agree with you 
It's always shocking for me to see how less youngsters know. We always discuss important issues with our kids andvare often told by theirvteachers, that they are about the only ones in their class who have heard about this issue or know something about that one. But that's the way I was brought up by my parents, and I think that it's important to talk about problems and issues, because in just three years they'll be able to vote for people and political parties, and they should at least know what effects their vote has (and I hope that they know how important and valuable it us to be able to vote - and to choose).

By the way: Do you know who had the idea of the 'United States of Europe'? It was Winston Churchill, I guess he's rolling in his grave...

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Re: The Serious Side

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