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Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 09 2015, 19:27

LornaDoone wrote:Saved the trial, saved feeding their worthless asses for years to come.
Yes and no. Their 'martyrdom' will inspire those who believe in their 'cause' and their  'afterlife' and set them up as heroic figures.  Whereas a lifetime jail sentence might be a more sobering and pertinent outcome.

But yes, I can solidly get behind not having to spend one single second reading about the trial of people for whom civilised process has no meaning.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Fri Jan 09 2015, 20:03

They say in the news now that Governments expect more little attacks like that in Europe in the future. As it gives a big shock in the Western world. That's what they want.  Now we face the period were young European (who turned extemists) return now from Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Syria. Those countries are the playgrounds for them. Our Government said we have around 260 of those who are on the watch list and are now in our country and returned from those countries. Very scary.

It may be impossible for governments to restrict free citizens from travel to certain places. But I, for one, don't see the problem in saying, "Fine, you can go there. But if you do, don't expect to come back."

Yes, it does keep innocent people from visiting their families in Yemen or wherever. Yes, it does sacrifice the rights of naturalized citizens to return to their adopted homelands. I'm okay with that. Everything comes with a price. If enough innocent people are denied, then maybe they will help turn the tide against the murderous zealous who are causing the situation in the first place.

If they're not free to roam the earth, maybe the cowards will all be forced into a few spots where they can be reached with well-armed drones...

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Donnamarie on Fri Jan 09 2015, 20:24

Way2Old4Dis wrote:
... if your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourselves



Amen.

I couldn't agree more.

But if anyone thinks sympathizers of these aholes will be deterred from doing some similar violence in the future to send their pitiful message to the masses well they are very much mistaken. The media was all over this giving these killers all the press you could ask for. And they died for it. So now they are martyrs and will be revered by the extremists all over the world.

We are going to have to do a better job of staying one step ahead of these terrorists.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Nicky80 on Fri Jan 09 2015, 20:27

Way2Old4Dis wrote:
They say in the news now that Governments expect more little attacks like that in Europe in the future. As it gives a big shock in the Western world. That's what they want.  Now we face the period were young European (who turned extemists) return now from Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Syria. Those countries are the playgrounds for them. Our Government said we have around 260 of those who are on the watch list and are now in our country and returned from those countries. Very scary.

It may be impossible for governments to restrict free citizens from travel to certain places. But I, for one, don't see the problem in saying, "Fine, you can go there. But if you do, don't expect to come back."

Yes, it does keep innocent people from visiting their families in Yemen or wherever. Yes, it does sacrifice the rights of naturalized citizens to return to their adopted homelands. I'm okay with that. Everything comes with a price. If enough innocent people are denied, then maybe they will help turn the tide against the murderous zealous who are causing the situation in the first place.

If they're not free to roam the earth, maybe the cowards will all be forced into a few spots where they can be reached with well-armed drones...


I sooooo agree with that.  Sometimes I hate this kind of democracy. Why giving them the right to return home and wait to see if they are dangerous. If you travel to those countries you are most likely dangerous. And most who travel there have no Family there as their are Born in Western Europe (but the parents imigrated from eastern countries).


Whoever travels to those countries should lose the right to come back. That would be much safer for us instead to let them back in and watch them and wait until something happens.


One of the brothers in the France attack traveled to Yemen around 2009 and he was on the watch list. I think that's says it all.


I remember (maybe more then 15 years ago). There was a teenager, his parents imigrated from Turkey to Germany and the Teenager was Born in Germany. He had so many troubles with the law the Government had enough. When he was 16, they just deported him back to Turkey even though he was born here and had no tight families anymore in Turkey. But the government didn't care. It was in South Germany and South Germany is like Texas very concervative. it was big in the News. I think if i remember right after around 10 years he was allowed to come back as he asked for it as his life wasn't that good in Turkey.


I think this was good. I really don't care about "but I'm born here". if you try to hurt what you call "home" then get lost....

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Silje on Sat Jan 10 2015, 13:31

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/charlie-hebdo-paris-massacre-anonymous-vows-avenge-victims-cyber-war-jihadists-1482675



Charlie Hebdo Paris massacre: Anonymous vows to avenge victims with cyber-war on jihadists
The statement, in French, calls on all computer users to join them in their campaign against jihadist sites through a distributed denial of service (DDoS) attack.
"Freedom of expression has suffered an inhuman assault," the statement reads. "Sickened, shocked, we cannot fall to the ground. It is our duty to react.
"It is clear that some people do not want, in a free world, this inviolable and sacred right to freely express opinions. Anonymous will never let this right be violated by obscurantism and mysticism. We will always fight the enemies of freedom of expression everywhere."

Recent Anonymous campaigns have offered support to pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong by attacking Chinese government websites, as well as attempting to take down government and company websites following the sabotage of online file-sharing site The Pirate Bay.
The attack on Charlie Hebdo, the satirical French magazine, left 12 people dead and 11 injured on Wednesday.
The two suspects have been linked by intelligence officials to militant groups and were heard shouting Islamist slogans as they carried out the massacre.
A huge police operation is currently ongoing in an effort to capture the perpetrators, currently surrounded by police in a building in north-east Paris.
"Freedom of expression and opinion is a non-negotiable thing to tackle - to attack it is to attack democracy," Anonymous' statement concludes.
"Expect a massive and head-on reaction on our part because the defence of those freedoms is the foundation of our movement."

Anonymous, the online "hacktivist" collective, has announced that it will avenge the attack on Charlie Hebdo by rendering jihadist websites inaccessible.
The group published a video on YouTube through its Anonymous Belgique channel, as well as a statement posted on Pastebin.

The statement, in French, calls on all computer users to join them in their campaign against jihadist sites through a distributed denial of service (DDoS) attack.
"Freedom of expression has suffered an inhuman assault," the statement reads. "Sickened, shocked, we cannot fall to the ground. It is our duty to react.
"It is clear that some people do not want, in a free world, this inviolable and sacred right to freely express opinions. Anonymous will never let this right be violated by obscurantism and mysticism. We will always fight the enemies of freedom of expression everywhere."

Recent Anonymous campaigns have offered support to pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong by attacking Chinese government websites, as well as attempting to take down government and company websites following the sabotage of online file-sharing site The Pirate Bay.
The attack on Charlie Hebdo, the satirical French magazine, left 12 people dead and 11 injured on Wednesday.
The two suspects have been linked by intelligence officials to militant groups and were heard shouting Islamist slogans as they carried out the massacre.
A huge police operation is currently ongoing in an effort to capture the perpetrators, currently surrounded by police in a building in north-east Paris.
"Freedom of expression and opinion is a non-negotiable thing to tackle - to attack it is to attack democracy," Anonymous' statement concludes.
"Expect a massive and head-on reaction on our part because the defence of those freedoms is the foundation of our movement."


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jan 10 2015, 15:57

This is a great idea. There are too many disaffected young people looking for a cause - any cause - to follow. If our governments can't shut these jihadist recruiters down maybe Anonymous can. I hope so.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LornaDoone on Sat Jan 10 2015, 22:05

Maybe we need to focus on how to get these "disaffected youth" engaged in OUR society.

We need more organizations that will steer youth into positive pursuits.  One of the biggest causes of teen's use of drugs and teen crime is boredom.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-boredom-destructive-behavior/

http://blog.acton.org/archives/1529-Boredom-and-Teen-Crime.html

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jan 10 2015, 23:36

Lorna - I have always been a firm believer in a year of national service after high school or the age of 18. NOT the military (unless that's the choice of the individual) but something like VISTA or some kind of volunteer service with a charitable organization. I also believe some sort of volunteer service should be mandatory for high school graduation.

We expect too little of our children. They are capable of so much more and have so many more advantages than most of the other kids in the world that it's a shame they waste so much of their potential.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Joanna on Sat Jan 10 2015, 23:47

Here in UK there was compulsory National Service for young men, lasting two years, in one of the three defense services. It ceased in 1970's.

I always think it should be recommended
as young boys went in and men came out.
They had the chance to learn a trade, but more important they learned self discipline, respect....
and how to pack their own suitcase !

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LizzyNY on Sun Jan 11 2015, 01:57

Jo - I don't think military service is the answer, or that only boys should be required to serve. I think it should be a requirement for all our kids, boys and girls, to do some kind of service to make the country that offers them so much a better place. There are so many ways in which they can be of service, but we don't offer them the option.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Katiedot on Sun Jan 11 2015, 08:14

I think (and this may just be my age talking now) that some sort of 'do-gooding' programme should be mandatory. In the UK at least, education, healthcare, dental etc is all free of charge for under 18s. Time to start giving back to the country (or even the world) you came from.

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I am NOT CHARLIE

Post by Einstein on Wed Jan 14 2015, 19:03


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Nicky80 on Wed Jan 14 2015, 20:01

Merged threads

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Einstein on Wed Jan 14 2015, 20:11

DANKE Nicky80 Wink

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Einstein on Wed Jan 14 2015, 20:34

    "EINSTEIN IS NOT CHARLIE"!!!!!!!    RappaScia Marina Facebook : FRANCE: PARTY Marin Le Pen


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Einstein on Wed Jan 14 2015, 20:35

RappaScia Marina FACEBOOK :>>>>>>> FRANKREICH: PARTEI Marin Le Pen


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Einstein on Wed Jan 14 2015, 20:36

RappaScia Marina FRANKREICH: PARTEI Marin Le Pen <<<<<<


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jan 15 2015, 21:11

I never thought there would be a time were I would agree with the Pope...but now the time has come....


Now even the Pope says he would PUNCH someone who insulted his mother as he says there are 'limits to freedom of speech' following Charlie Hebdo attack


The Pope says people 'cannot insult the faith of others', adding that he would punch someone if they offended his mother, as he debated freedom of speech in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attack.
The Pontiff said there were limits to freedom of expression and that 'provocateurs' should not purposely anger religious people.
Speaking on board the papal plane on his way to the Philippines, he also insisted that it was an 'aberration' to kill in the name of God and that religion can never be used to justify violence.

By way of example, Pope Francis referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organises papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane. 
'If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,' Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. 
'It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.' 


Following the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in Paris, many people have defended the satirical magazine for publishing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.
But the Pope said there was a limit to free speech when it concerned offending someone's religious beliefs.
He said: 'There are so many people who speak badly about religions or other religions, who make fun of them, who make a game out of the religions of others.
'They are provocateurs. And what happens to them is what would happen to Dr Gasparri if he says a curse word against my mother. There is a limit.' 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2911370/Pope-arrives-Philippines-amid-massive-security-operation.html

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Einstein on Thu Jan 15 2015, 21:50

Hey Nicky80 cool your contribution

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LornaDoone on Thu Jan 15 2015, 22:03

Interesting that he speaks about the provocateurs but not of those killing in the NAME of their religion.


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Guest on Thu Jan 15 2015, 22:06

Nicky80 wrote:I never thought there would be a time were I would agree with the Pope...but now the time has come....
By way of example, Pope Francis referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organises papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane.  'If my good friend Dr Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,' Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. 'It's normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.'
What a bizarrely random and inappropriate example. Insulting someone's mother (or family member) is so not comparable to calling extreme beliefs out. This is not and has never been about making fun of other people's faith and beliefs, it's about the right to stand up and call extreme religious beliefs out and hold them up to scrutiny. And the barbarity of Islamic extremism deserves, at the very least, ridicule.

Major #Popefail there.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Einstein on Thu Jan 15 2015, 22:27

LornaDoone<<<<<<< I think that you did not understand it, do you mean the video? or the contribution of Nicky80?

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Thu Jan 15 2015, 22:47

If I am your sibling, or I know your mother well, and I insult your mother, then, yeah, maybe I should expect a punch -- or maybe expect that you'd feel like throwing one.

But if your mother is just a random person to me who looks/acts/smells funny enough to be made fun of, then I'm just an asshole for saying so, and should be told so or completely ignored as the asshole I am.

Or maybe you, as the child of that mother, talk to me and educate me how I'm in the wrong.

The analogy: it is against the religion of Islam to depict the prophet Muhammed for those who believe in Islam. Tenets of Islam mean nothing to someone who is not Muslim. Non-Muslims can say whatever the fuck they want about Islam (not saying that's right or just or even sensible) and not be in violation of anything.

And nobody deserves to die for it, or be "punched," in any scenario.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Donnamarie on Thu Jan 15 2015, 23:01

Way2Old4Dis wrote:If I am your sibling, or I know your mother well, and I insult your mother, then, yeah, maybe I should expect a punch -- or maybe expect that you'd feel like throwing one.

But if your mother is just a random person to me who looks/acts/smells funny enough to be made fun of, then I'm just an asshole for saying so, and should be told so or completely ignored as the asshole I am.

Or maybe you, as the child of that mother, talk to me and educate me how I'm in the wrong.

The analogy: it is against the religion of Islam to depict the prophet Muhammed for those who believe in Islam. Tenets of Islam mean nothing to someone who is not Muslim. Non-Muslims can say whatever the fuck they want about Islam (not saying that's right or just or even sensible) and not be in violation of anything.

And nobody deserves to die for it, or be "punched," in any scenario.

I agree Way2. Although I'm not sure if I even agree it would be ok to slug someone who just insulted someone in my family or a close friend.

I recall when Steve Wynn(sp?) called Obama an asshole to George when they were having lunch or dinner and George got up from his chair and walked away. I'm sure he would have liked to punch him out.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LornaDoone on Fri Jan 16 2015, 02:30

Einstein wrote:LornaDoone<<<<<<< I think that you did not understand it, do you mean the video? or the contribution of Nicky80?
I'm speaking about the Pope's comments.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Nicky80 on Fri Jan 16 2015, 06:41

To be fair. I don't think the Pope wanted to justify with his Statement that the killing was right. he said before that this is wrong. That's logic.
the reason he made this stament was he was on a plane with the press and he was asked about the "free speech" issue as a new Magazine with a Mohammed face came out. So he was answering this. Obviously he would never support extremists or that the killing was justified as a Rresponse. He wanted to explain what Kind of danger you put yourself in when you provoke. That's all.

I think we all agree even the Pope that killing in the name of god is a NO GO.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by it's me on Fri Jan 16 2015, 10:40

obviously!
I agree on the provoking issue
WE HAVE TO  PROTECT AND DEFEND freedom of speech but it has also its limits

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by party animal - not! on Fri Jan 16 2015, 14:57

...........well, speaking personally, I'm not sure that somebody saying something or printing something that you don't like entitles you to kill them.


https://ca.screen.yahoo.com/mass-shooting-at-paris-newspaper/charlie-hebdo-editor-thanks-schwarzenegger-025205760.html

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LizzyNY on Fri Jan 16 2015, 15:28

it's me wrote:obviously!
I agree on the provoking issue
WE HAVE TO  PROTECT AND DEFEND freedom of speech but it has also its limits
When you start thinking free speech has limits, you are curbing free speech. Where do you draw the line? One person's insult is another person's joke, and this will be different depending on where in the world you come from. And who decides what the limits are? The one who makes the remark or the one who is offended?

There are, and always will be, insensitive, crude, uncaring people whose words or actions will offend someone. I think, rather than try to stop them from expressing themselves (which is really impossible) we need to focus on how we respond to their provocations.There are many, many options open to us but unless the offender is advocating violence, IMO they have the right to their opinions - as I do to mine. I don't have to agree with them or like what they say, but they have the right to say it - and I have the right to respond - or ignore them. But neither they nor I have the right to use violence to make a point. That is not free speech - it is barbarism- and that's where I would draw the line.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by it's me on Fri Jan 16 2015, 16:34

freedom of speech is not freedom of insult

I mean
those so delicate issues can inflame ppl

and a bit care or discernment about the limits would have been better

that said obviously the answer about the offence (if ever would be) needs something not involving weapons


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Fri Jan 16 2015, 16:43

I do not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.  -- Voltaire

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by it's me on Fri Jan 16 2015, 16:50

hmmm

would you defend one spitting on you Mom
so to say?

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Donnamarie on Fri Jan 16 2015, 16:52

LizzyNY yes the moment you say "but" to qualify freedom of speech you put limits on it. Once you put limits on it then everyone's interpretation of what freedom of speech means becomes blurred. We have to maintain freedom of speech in its purest definition.

I have never seen a copy of The Charlie Hebdo magazine. If I did read it I would probably find it very offensive. The pictures and the words. I'm sure the staff knew that they offended many. They wanted to provoke. They wanted to make the point that we can express a point of view and it's our right. And it's everyone's right.

There is so much hate and violence in our world today. It's important that we always strive to preserve our rights as world citizens wherever we live to be able to speak out about injustice, hatred, discrimination in its many forms! And to be able to disagree without censorship or some kind of retribution.

It is a hard pill to swallow sometimes but I believe it's necessary.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by it's me on Fri Jan 16 2015, 16:59

still in doubt
even if I agree on the purest def

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LizzyNY on Fri Jan 16 2015, 17:38

it's me - Maybe look at it from another perspective. The more intense your response to something that offends you, the more power you give the offender.

Al Qaeda was offended by Charlie Hebdo. They sent three terrorists. The next day THREE MILLION Frenchmen and women marched in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo and the whole western world sided with France and increased their determination to rid the world of terrorists. Probably not the outcome Al Qaeda was expecting.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Fri Jan 16 2015, 17:53

it's me wrote:hmmm

would you defend one spitting on you Mom
so to say?


I know my mother to be a warm, caring, funny, compassionate, and sometimes maddeningly old-fashioned person. Anybody who "spits" on her (assuming you mean metaphorically -- otherwise it's an assault and that person gets an ass kicking) either does not know her, is a liar, or just plain old stupid. None of those kinds of people is worth my time and energy.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Fri Jan 16 2015, 17:58

LizzyNY wrote:it's me - Maybe look at it from another perspective. The more intense your response to something that offends you, the more power you give the offender.

Al Qaeda was offended by Charlie Hebdo. They sent three terrorists. The next day THREE MILLION Frenchmen and women marched in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo and the whole western world sided with France and increased their determination to rid the world of terrorists. Probably not the outcome Al Qaeda was expecting.


Exactly. And there's no question as to which action portrays one side as intelligent and sympathetic beings, and which shows an inability to think beyond barbarism.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by it's me on Fri Jan 16 2015, 18:01

metaphorically
of course


well
the outcome I also think they didn't imagine

and the "I will defend your idea" is higly pure
and romantic

but I still think there are limits
to stop by law
but to keep in mind


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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by / on Fri Jan 16 2015, 20:08

I think some of the reactions to the attack were wrong. I read an article in a Belgian magazine in which a muslim activist said that all these terrorists want conflicts within different groups of society. The opposition of the people, the reaction of politicians,... all of this was wanted by these organisations. I suspect Front National is getting a lot more votes next election and a lot of those other parties in Europe as well. He said that yes there should have been a reaction but not of this scale. I agree. Ignoring this act as much as possible and trying not to oppose to the islam as a religion, that's what has to be done. These terrorists want to spread hatred and fear amongst people. And reacting too negatively or strongly to this only encourages them more and more.
This week in Belgium several extremists were killed in a fight with the police. The police got threats and now the army has been sent to patrol around police stations and court building in Brussels and Antwerp with very large guns. This has been unheard of and never would I have thought this would happen in Belgium. I am appalled by this and this to me feels like the beginning of something very wrong... together with the attack in Paris of course.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Boshkash on Wed Feb 04 2015, 01:18

It is not freedom of speech to call or draw a huge figure and a Prophet of another religion as a terrorist and make people who never heard about Islam to know it like that, there are limits for everything, because doing whatever ones like had never been a good idea. What happened was wrong and terrible, as invading Iraq, Pakistan and most of the Muslim world is. I am a Muslim girl who lived in America for a year and half and had never killed nor harmed anyone, why must I endure such words against my religion and my fellow Muslims because some extremists decided that killing is the best solution? Why ridicule our love and respect for our prophet every now and then? Why can't you Westrens care about your own troubles and systems and leave us alone? DON'T GENERLIZE, don't focus on the black dot and leave the whiteness..

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Katiedot on Wed Feb 04 2015, 04:36

Unfortunately it IS free speech, Boshkash.  As you live in another country you understand that you have to follow that country's laws, whether you agree with them or not.  In France it's not illegal, immoral or wrong to draw cartoons of religious figures (you forget that often they ridiculed Christians, so let's not get hung up on this being just an anti-muslim thing) and therefore they did nothing wrong.  You cannot punish someone who's done nothing wrong.

I write this as someone who's lived in Muslim countries for almost all my adult life. I follow the laws and cultural requirements of where I live because that's the right thing to do.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LornaDoone on Wed Feb 04 2015, 06:10

My biggest issue with this religion of peace is the silence on the part of much of the Muslim world.

When an atrocity is committed if a Muslim says nothing, then to me, it makes me believe they also believe as those who are committing the atrocities.

You cannot continually cry that it's not Islam that is the problem it's just a few terrorists if you don't go out and condemn the terrorist actions.  And even more importantly, work to stop the terrorists.

It's easy to sit back and comment on a forum of how your religion is being disrespected when you do nothing to earn that respect back.

The viciousness of this Sharia law goes beyond what MOST people believe to be acceptable.

I have no great love for Saudi Arabia since they use brutal methods to keep their citizens in line.  I also have no use for ANY religion that relegates women into subservient roles.  Yes, that includes the Catholic Church.

You know deep down in your gut when something is not right, when something goes beyond the tolerance of decent human beings.  And to say nothing about that - to NOT demand that these thugs be killed on the spot when caught and instead whine about not getting respect for your religion shows a deep lack of understanding of the intrinsic laws of decency.

Killing another is wrong.  But sitting back and allowing someone to be killed just because they think differently than you, or don't want to worship as you and most importantly, don't want to be forced to worship as you do is also wrong.

I get people knocking on my door occasionally from various religions here in the US trying to spread their word to me.  I have the freedom to say no thank you - you are entitled to your beliefs, but I do not share them.

ISIS and often IMO too many Muslims. have this deep seated and TAUGHT notion that only THEIR religion is of value and anyone who does not believe are to be subjected to torture and/or death. 

That this is widely accepted (by the silence of millions) is appalling and galling and hence. also IMO. why so many do NOT respect the claims of Islam being a religion of peace.

I constantly rail against the political officials who are voted into office and who's first act is to try to impose their religious rules upon others.  This wrapping of religion and state - as we see in so many Muslim countries - constantly leads to the subjugation and suppression of anyone who does not WANT to be a Muslim nor follow the Islam religion.

And many people, in many countries agree with that idea that you should be free to worship as you wish but that you do not have the right to demand, terrorize, kill, torture anyone who does not want to believe as you.

I think this is the basis of so much negativity toward Muslims and Islam.  You can protest all you want.  But until Muslims start to say - "No stop!  This is not right - we cannot force others to think and worship as we do" - your religion will NEVER get the respect you think you deserve.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by LizzyNY on Wed Feb 04 2015, 18:21

Boshkash asks why we Westerns can't leave her people alone. Believe me, we'd be happy to. I'd be thrilled if we spent our money here at home and not on the oil we get from the Arab world. I'd be thrilled if our troops stayed here at home and stopped dying to protect people who ask for help then hate us for helping. I'd be thrilled if all our charities stopped sending the money they raise to countries that don't protect the aid workers who come to serve them. I'd be thrilled if the greater Muslim community stood up to the psychopaths they have created and unleashed on the world.

In other words, Boshkash, I'll leave you alone if you leave us alone. Take your own advice and clean your own house before you criticize others.

PS - Sorry if I offend anyone, but I've had just about enough. I'm sorry if people in the Muslim community got their feelings hurt, but really - grow up! I just read an article in the NY Post that says European Jews are wondering if they're safe and trying to decide if it's time to leave - AGAIN - as they have been forced to do for two thousand years whenever anti-semitism rears its ugly head.

When things go bad at home people from the Muslim world come running to the West. Now they're bringing their problems with them and making the whole world unsafe. Where , Bohkash, should we all go to leave you alone when you keep coming to us?


Last edited by LizzyNY on Wed Feb 04 2015, 18:35; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Donnamarie on Wed Feb 04 2015, 18:29

LornesDoone I don't agree with everything you said but I do agree with some of your points.

I think there needs to be MORE of an outcry from Muslims as a religious entity to these atrocities.  And I do not think anything positive will happen until the countries in the Middle East come together and recognize that this is their problem to solve.  They need to get their joint military forces, with their boots on the ground and go in and dismantle ISIS.  Easier said than done.  I don't think the Middle East has the balls to do it.  No one in the West is going to clean up this mess.  We as a western nation have already left a huge footprint in Iraq.  That is what contributed to some of the current instability in this area.  That and obviously the oppression that many citizens of the Middle East confront everyday.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by party animal - not! on Wed Feb 04 2015, 19:02

No one is entitled to kill someone because they don't like something that they've said, written or drawn.

Universal respect for all religions would be wonderful and in the interests of tolerance many countries across the world, including mine, have mosques, synagogues and churches etc.

Wouldn't it be great to see the same degree of tolerance in some Middle Eastern countries?

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by fava on Wed Feb 04 2015, 19:15

Defending your religion is not the same as condemning these atrocities.  I hear (in the US media reports at least) folks defending their beliefs and saying they should not be tarred with the same brush as the terrorists.  What I do not hear is them condeming the terrorists and calling on all followers of their religion to unite and condemn these actions.  Even if you believe that free speech does not entitle someone to mock another's religion, reasonable people of all religions should be able to agree that death is not the response.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Carla97 on Wed Feb 04 2015, 19:24

I definitely agree what Lorna is saying here. I couldn´t say it better.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Wed Feb 04 2015, 19:42

Wouldn't it be great to see the same degree of tolerance in some Middle Eastern countries?

This is a question that starts scratching the surface of the true problem, which is that Islam has corrupted its own teachings, and its believers have put themselves under the power of the corrupt.

"Islam" simply means "submission to God." There is not a single passage in the Quran where you will find "islam" used as a reference to a particular religion. Nowhere does it say that. Islam says that you will submit to the power of God, and that God alone has this 'power.' That is no different than what the Bible teaches, or what the Torah teaches. Religious labels are man-made.

So when extremist Muslims declare that they are following the teachings of Islam that instruct them to take their 'religion' to the world because it is the only accepted worship of God, they have basically either ignored or intentionally corrupted the Quran's most basic teaching. Or, they're just plain morons who like to kill people. Anyone who submits to God as the 'Power' is following Islam, according to the Quran, and it does not matter what any particular religion is called.

The prophet Mohammed, who came along long, long after the first teachings of Islam, did not teach violence to spread Islam; that is contradictory on its face because "Islam" requires the submission of the living human soul to God.

Muslim extremists are therefore the most non-religious, non-spiritual, and immoral people. They are themselves exactly whom they profess to hate. And true Muslims need to remember that and take their faith back from this corruption.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Donnamarie on Wed Feb 04 2015, 20:48

To Way2's last paragraph above that is key.  The realization of the Muslim faith to call out this terrorist organization that espouses nothing of religious value. ISIS and its affiliates are nothing more than groups who worship violence and hatred.   Nothing more complicated than that.  There is no God involved.  

Muslims across the world should not be looked upon as associated with or somehow responsible for these barbaric acts in any way.  Nor should they be discriminated against.   But I personally would like them to stand up far more vocally than they have and talk to what the Quran really professes.  Muslim leaders in the Middle East should encourage all Muslims to speak out.  
Most people in the world don't really understand the Muslim faith, including myself.  ISIS and other extremist groups have corrupted the true teachings of the Quran.  It's imperative for Muslims to set the record straight, so to speak.

And the leaders in the Middle East need to start cleaning up their own mess! And as PAN said it would be nice to see more tolerance of religious beliefs in some of these countries. Absolutely.

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

Post by Nicky80 on Wed Feb 04 2015, 21:01

Guess since the Jordanian Pilot got burned alive some start to wake up now....


Jordanian king vows 'relentless' war on Islamic State's own ground

AMMAN (Reuters) - Jordan's King Abdullah vowed a "relentless" war against Islamic State on their own territory on Wednesday in response to a video published by the hard-line group showing a captured Jordanian air force pilot being burned alive in a cage.
Jordan hanged two Iraqi jihadists, one a woman, on Wednesday and vowed to intensify military action against Islamic State

"We are waging this war to protect our faith, our values and human principles and our war for their sake will be relentless and will hit them in their own ground," state television quoted the king as saying during a security meeting.
U.S. officials said on Wednesday that the United Arab Emirates had withdrawn from flying air strikes in the U.S.-led coalition campaign against Islamic State after the Jordanian pilot's plane went down over Syria in December.
Jordan, which is part of the U.S.-led alliance, had promised an "earth-shaking response" to the killing of its pilot, Mouath al-Kasaesbeh, who was captured after his F-16 crashed.

Government spokesman Mohammad al-Momani said on Wednesday: "We are talking about a collaborative effort between coalition members to intensify efforts to stop extremism and terrorism to undermine, degrade and eventually finish Daesh." Daesh is used as a derogatory Arabic term for Islamic State.
He said it was a continuation of Jordan's long standing policy in fighting hard-line Islamist militants and that King Abdullah, who cut short a trip to the United States, headed a meeting with senior security officials on Wednesday.
"All the state's military and security agencies are developing their options. Jordan's response will be heard by the world at large but this response on the security and military level will be announced at the appropriate time," Momani said.

Islamic State had demanded the release of Sajida al-Rishawi in exchange for a Japanese hostage whom it later beheaded. Sentenced to death for her role in a 2005 suicide bomb attack in Amman, Rishawi was executed at dawn.
Jordan also executed a senior al Qaeda prisoner, Ziyad Karboli, an Iraqi man who was sentenced to death in 2008.
The Jordanian pilot was the first from the coalition known to have been captured and killed by Islamic State.
Jordan is a major U.S. ally in the fight against hardline Islamist groups and hosted U.S. troops during operations that led to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. It is home to hundreds of U.S. military trainers bolstering defences at the Syrian and Iraqi borders, and is determined to keep the jihadists in Syria away from its frontier.
CALLS FOR REVENGE
The fate of Kasaesbeh, a member of a large tribe that forms the backbone of support for the country's Hashemite monarchy, has gripped Jordan for weeks.
Some Jordanians had criticised the king for embroiling them in the U.S.-led war that they said would provoke a militant backlash but the pilot's killing produced a wave of outrage and calls for revenge.
Jordan's authorities have not commented on how many missions the air force has carried out against Islamic State.

In a televised statement to the nation, the king urged national unity and said the killing was a cowardly act of terror by a criminal group that has no relation to Islam.
Muslim clerics across the Middle East, even those sympathetic to the jihadist cause, also expressed outrage, saying such a form of killing was considered despicable by Islam.
President Barack Obama's nominee for defense secretary Ashton Carter on Wednesday vowed to understand and resolve reported delays in U.S. arms sales to Jordan.
Obama has sought to attract a broad coalition, drawing on as many regional countries as possible, to avoid the appearance that the campaign is just an endeavour involving Western powers.
The U.S. officials who said the UAE had withdrawn from the air campaign spoke on condition of anonymity. "I can confirm that UAE suspended air strikes shortly after the Jordanian pilot's plane went down, but let me be clear that UAE continues to be an important and valuable partner that is contributing to the coalition," one official said.
There was widespread shock and anger across Jordan at the brutality of the pilot's killing, which drew international condemnation.
The European Union combined a statement of solidarity with Jordan over the killing of the pilots with criticism of its immediate execution of two Iraqi jihadists.
Kasaesbeh's father said the two executions were not enough and urged the government to do more to avenge his death.

"I want the state to get revenge for my son's blood through more executions of those people who follow this criminal group that shares nothing with Islam," Safi al-Kasaesbeh told Reuters.
Islamic State has seized large areas of Iraq and Syria, Jordan's neighbours to the north and east.
In the pilot's home village of Ay, mourners said Jordanians must rally around the state. "Today we put our differences behind us and rally behind the king and nation," said Jabar Sarayrah, a shopkeeper.
DAWN EXECUTION
The prisoners were executed in Swaqa prison, 70 km (45 miles) south of Amman, just before dawn, a security source who was familiar with the case said. "They were both calm and showed no emotions and just prayed," he added without elaborating.
Rishawi, in her mid-forties, was part of an al Qaeda network that targeted three Amman hotels in suicide bombings in 2005. She was meant to die in one of the attacks - the worst in Jordan's history - but her suicide bomb belt did not go off.
Only two other prisoners are on death row in Jordan - Mohammad Hassan al Sahli, a Syrian who was convicted of plotting and executing a rocket attack in August 2005 against a U.S. navy vessel and the Israeli port city of Eilat, and Jordanian Muamar Jaghbeer, a leading al Qaeda operative.
There are at least 250 Islamist militants in prison, almost half of them were arrested in the past year and are Islamic State sympathisers.
Jordan said on Tuesday the pilot had been killed a month ago. The government had been picking up intelligence for weeks that the pilot was killed some time ago, a source close to the government said.
"The horror of the killing, the method of killing is probably going to generate more short-term support for the state," said a Western diplomat. "But once that horror dies down, inevitably some of the questions revert on Jordan’s role in the coalition."
The Syrian government condemned the killing and urged Jordan to cooperate with it in a fight against Islamic State and the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front in Syria. The United States has ruled out Syria as a partner in the campaign against Islamic State, describing President Bashar al-Assad as part of the problem.
The executed woman came from Iraq's Anbar province bordering Jordan. Her tribal Iraqi relatives were close aides of the slain Jordanian leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, from whose group Islamic State emerged.
Islamic State had demanded her release in exchange for the life of Japanese journalist Kenji Goto. However, Goto was beheaded by the group, video released last Saturday showed.
Jordan had insisted that they would only release the woman as part of a deal to free the Pilot.

https://news.yahoo.com/jordan-executes-two-iraqi-militants-response-pilots-death-033203764.html

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Re: Terror Attack in Paris Jan 7 2015

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