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Palestine / Israel Conflict

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by melbert on Sun Jul 27 2014, 14:40

And the humanitarian cease fire lasted less than 24 hours when the bombing started again...

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sun Jul 27 2014, 18:09

I think I would have been surprised if the cease fire lasted at least 24 hours or more then that.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Sun Jul 27 2014, 18:11

LizzyNY wrote:I wish more countries followed your lead. Passive energy is the way of the future - it has to be, because some day we will run out of oil.

It's been noted that we have about 50 years of oil left in the entire world..

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/less-than-50-years-of-oil-left-hsbc-warns/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I still think hydrogen is the way to go.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/hybrid-technology/hydrogen-cars.htm

There are issues but they can be overcome.  Re-fueling infrastructure is one of them.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Mon Jul 28 2014, 03:30

Lorna - Hydrogen is one of the better options for some things, but not for all. There are a lot of alternatives to oil that should be investigated. Maybe the closer we get to running out of oil the more serious the governments of the world will be about finding alternatives.

Question: Considering how dependent the economy of the Middle East is on oil, what will happen if other forms of fuel take its place?

PS - Apparently Hamas broke the ceasefire so Israel felt forced to resume fighting. Both sides need to get off their high horses and stop!

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Mon Jul 28 2014, 04:40

Well for one thing regarding the Middle East and oil economy, at least one country there is addressing that aggressively - Dubai.

They have built up infrastructure that includes many buildings powered by solar and other alternatives.

They also have a long term plan to become a major hub for trade and have built up airports and other transportation systems to handle that.

I think I read an article several years ago about their long term plans.

As to the rest of the Middle East - those countries that support terrorism will certainly lose much of their influence given they won't have the billions of dollars to spend arming and supporting terrorist activities like they do now from their oil profits. 

Perhaps that's why they're pouring money into it now. Trying to ensure THEIR point of view dominates as many countries as possible so that it will be easier for them to control whatever natural resources those countries may have now.

I figure that's why there is so much support for African countries to be turned into strictly Islamic or Muslim countries.  JMO I can't PROVE that's what they intend.

I don't know what other Middle Eastern countries are doing to prepare for a future without oil.  Seems to me they want to regress when it comes to the focus of their countries not PRO-gress.

This guy has an interesting opinion of what would happen in America if we had no need for Middle East oil.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2012/12/03/what-happens-when-america-no-longer-needs-middle-east-oil/

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Mon Jul 28 2014, 22:52

More bad news out of Palestine and even more so out of Syria.

ISIS is truly disturbing.

How does one wrap their head around the fact that these folks want to kill each other and will stop at nothing to do so?

Do we just stand back and let it happen?  I know the US is damn weary of being the hated policemen who have to make pacts with the devil to try to keep the region stable.

There are some in this country who would state to let them kill each other off. 

What they fail to realize is that the violence will spill over as more come to hate our way of life and hate our past involvement in the region.  And there will also be those that will hate us for NOT helping.

It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

We go in to try to remove dictators who we had to support in the past but then who become true demons towards their own people in their attempts to keep power by controlling the people with fear.

But these reports of what ISIS is doing are barbaric.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by theminis on Mon Jul 28 2014, 23:02

ISIS is a very scary, very organised, sadly competent threat at the moment for sure - they have already released videos asking all the Indonesian Muslims to join their jihad - captured half of Iraq and parts of other locales, they are more extreme and barbarbic and inhumane than any other terrorist/extremist group -

With Gaza/Israel/Isis and others, it seems like the Middle East is trying to destroy itself or as many of its neighbours as possible -

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Mon Jul 28 2014, 23:18

what angriness carry them???

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Atalante on Mon Jul 28 2014, 23:21

LINK  Laughing What men want: power, money, women, ...

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Mon Jul 28 2014, 23:26

it's me it's centuries of one side being in power and killing the other.  Then the other gets in power and retaliates.  Religious beliefs also play a huge part of this region's problems. 

Centuries of hatred, death, destruction and revenge.

And because the rest of the world needs their oil we've all been drawn into it.

There was a book out some years back that stated that the next world war would be in the Middle East.

China would get involved because they need the oil.

The US will also get involved because of the need for oil.

The fact that so many of our politicians are in some way enriched by oil has dictated much of our policy over the years. 

I for one wish we would spend as much money as possible finding alternatives.  That we've not done so means we will continue to involve ourselves in these conflicts for years to come.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Mon Jul 28 2014, 23:32

Atalante wrote:LINK  Laughing What men want: power, money, women, ...

Good point.  They protest that too much is being made of watch

But I'm sure if he gets in power he will be just like the rest of them.  Do as I say and follow the laws of Islam.  But look the other way when I take a jet to another country and debase myself just like all the other heads of state in this region.

You all follow the laws.  I'm in charge now.  They don't apply to me.

Yup it won't just be watches he'll be sporting.

How long before he's got a gold toilet seat to set his ass on whilst the population starves.

It's happened in Russia.  It's happened in Ukraine.  Hell it happens here in the US.

Power corrupts.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

Don't remember who made that quote but it aptly applies.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Mon Jul 28 2014, 23:37

hmm
and a lot of it is burning right now
in Libia

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Tue Jul 29 2014, 00:15

Well leave it to Bloomberg to focus on what's important to their readers:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/wti-brent-crudes-decline-before-u-s-economic-data.html





WTI, Brent Decline as Flow of Crude Unaffected in Mideast

By Mark Shenk Jul 28, 2014 12:04 PM PT

West Texas Intermediate and Brent crudes dropped as the flow of oil from the Middle East was unaffected by the surge in violence in Libya and Iraq.



Crude in New York slipped for the fourth time in five days after clashes between militias in Tripoli didn’t spread to oil-export terminals. The conflict in Iraq spared the country’s main oil-producing region. WTI slid last week after government data showed that gasoline stockpiles rose to a four-month high as demand declined.


“The battles in Libya and the rebellion in Iraq haven’t had an impact on oil shipments,” said John Kilduff, a partner at Again Capital LLC, a New York-based hedge fund that focuses on energy. “This is the status quo these days. There’s also lackluster demand, which is adding to the downward pressure.”


WTI for September delivery dropped 42 cents, or 0.4 percent, to settle at $101.67 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. It was the lowest settlement since July 16. The volume of all futures traded was 16 percent below the 100-day average for the time of day.


Brent for September settlement dropped 82 cents, or 0.8 percent, to end the session at $107.57 a barrel on the London-based ICE Futures Europe exchange. Volume was 38 percent lower than the 100-day average. The European benchmark crude closed at a $5.90 premium to WTI, down from $6.30 on July 25.

Iraq, Libya
Attackers fired at a U.K. diplomatic convoy in Libya a day after the U.S. State Department evacuated its embassy. Libya pumped 500,000 barrels of crude a day on July 24, according to the state-run National Oil Corp. The country produced 300,000 barrels a day in June, according to Bloomberg estimates.


In Iraq, OPEC’s second-largest producer, fighting remains concentrated in the north, where militants from a breakaway al-Qaeda group known as the Islamic State captured the city of Mosul last month. The conflict hasn’t spread to the south, the source of more than three-quarters of the country’s oil output.


International pressure mounted on Israel to end its three-week offensive in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, with President Barack Obama and the United Nations Security Council demanding an immediate truce. The conflict is the third major military showdown between the sides in less than six years. It has already claimed the lives of more than 1,000 Palestinians, 45 Israelis and a Thai worker in Israel.


Economic Data
Brent futures climbed on July 25 because of rising tension between Ukraine and Russia, the world’s biggest energy-exporting country. Fighting near the Malaysian Air crash site in east Ukraine again prevented Dutch and Australian investigators from reaching the area as Chancellor Angela Merkel said Europe must agree to new Russia sanctions by tomorrow.


“We’re still looking at a powder keg in Ukraine and if there’s a major escalation we’ll see the geopolitical risk premium rush back into the market,” said Gene McGillian, an analyst and broker at Tradition Energy in Stamford, Connecticut.


The U.S. Commerce Department is scheduled to report the nation’s gross domestic product for the second quarter on July 30, while the Labor Department will publish monthly data on non-farm payrolls on Aug. 1. The Federal Reserve is scheduled to review monetary policy at a two-day meeting starting tomorrow.


The U.S. will account for about 21 percent of global oil consumption this year, almost double that of China, estimates from the International Energy Agency in Paris show.


“The fundamentals are putting a little pressure on the market,” McGillian said. “We have ample supplies and limited demand.”

Gasoline for August delivery dropped 1.61 cents, or 0.6 percent, to settle at $2.8492 a gallon on the Nymex. Diesel for August delivery declined 2.78 cents, or 1 percent, to $2.8879.


U.S. gasoline pump prices fell 0.4 cent to $3.523 a gallon yesterday, the lowest level since March 21, according to AAA, the largest U.S. motoring group.


To contact the reporter on this story: Mark Shenk in New York at mshenk1@bloomberg.net


To contact the editors responsible for this story: David Marino at dmarino4@bloomberg.net Richard Stubbe, Charlotte Porter
 

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Silje on Tue Jul 29 2014, 00:27

This is the crude facts. It's all about money. It scary to think what goes on behind the scenes.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Tue Jul 29 2014, 07:09

“The fundamentals are putting a little pressure on the market,” McGillian said. “We have ample supplies and limited demand.”



here we are....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Tue Jul 29 2014, 16:33

So, can someone tell me what the endgame is for Gaza?

Is it to "occupy" or "settle" it after bombing its infrastructure into oblivion and dispersing its peaceful civilian population to the surrounding countries?... And radicalize the next generations? And be surrounded by angry Palestinians who have lost the only home they had? And allow Hamas to recruit among them?  Or ISIS, or whatever organization holds "most dangerous" bragging rights at any given time?

Does Hamas plan to use innocent human shields for cover in a game of religious bombing chicken, until there's no one left standing, and then cry foul over Israel's inhumane aggression?

The answer I get from my Jewish friends is, "Nobody likes the bloodshed, but..." followed by a recitation of every paraphrasing of 'the best offense is a good defense' that can be distilled in good conscience. I ask my Muslim friends (including my sister), and it's pretty much the same, except with maybe a little more 'they started it' thrown in. It's maddening, and long ago crossed the line into depravity.

I think the most I'll do from this point on is catch the headlines. The story doesn't change much anyway. Paying attention and having compassion is too exhausting.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Alisonfan on Tue Jul 29 2014, 16:42

Way2Old4Dis wrote:So, can someone tell me what the endgame is for Gaza?

Is it to "occupy" or "settle" it after bombing its infrastructure into oblivion and dispersing its peaceful civilian population to the surrounding countries?... And radicalize the next generations? And be surrounded by angry Palestinians who have lost the only home they had? And allow Hamas to recruit among them?  Or ISIS, or whatever organization holds "most dangerous" bragging rights at any given time?

Does Hamas plan to use innocent human shields for cover in a game of religious bombing chicken, until there's no one left standing, and then cry foul over Israel's inhumane aggression?

The answer I get from my Jewish friends is, "Nobody likes the bloodshed, but..." followed by a recitation of every paraphrasing of 'the best offense is a good defense' that can be distilled in good conscience. I ask my Muslim friends (including my sister), and it's pretty much the same, except with maybe a little more 'they started it' thrown in. It's maddening, and long ago crossed the line into depravity.

I think the most I'll do from this point on is catch the headlines. The story doesn't change much anyway. Paying attention and having compassion is too exhausting.

WTO4D
You summed it up pretty well Way.  Please don't get compassion fatigue.  
If you stand two five year old boys, from either side, in front of you - you would not be able to tell the difference.  So sad.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Tue Jul 29 2014, 16:45

can we start something like #stopit

?

a bipartisan pray from the whole word

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Atalante on Tue Jul 29 2014, 20:21

Israel and landgrab, ..., Palestinians should sue Israel !  Twisted Evil

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Tue Jul 29 2014, 21:51

energy idea


http://electratherm.com/it/

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Tue Jul 29 2014, 22:26

Way20ld - Unless and until both sides of this mess sit down in good faith and work together to find a common ground there will be no end to the problem. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Thay've both inflicted enough pain on the other to last for generations and I'm afraid they won't stop until there's no one left to fight.

The world created this problem when Palestine was partitioned and now it will probably take the whole world to stop it. Only God knows how, but there has to be a solution.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Tue Jul 29 2014, 23:02

right
the whole word need to amend

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Joanna on Wed Jul 30 2014, 00:12

it's me wrote:right
the whole word need to amend

Yes true IM....but man's greed and lust for power take over unfortunately.
I've thought for many years that the only time the Countries
might all unite would be if Planet Earth was threatened by another Planet.
Hopefully anyway.


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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Wed Jul 30 2014, 00:34

oh gosh  Errrr 

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Thu Jul 31 2014, 01:55

it's me wrote:can we start something like #stopit

?

a bipartisan pray from the whole word



Does the "#" mean the number or pound symbol that Twitter has co-opted into a "hashtag." whatever the f**k that is?

So you're suggesting a Twitter "campaign?"

I don't do social media, but if I did, I'd be more inclined to use something like #remember_myriam to remind all these warring assholes who hate each other just how much their religions actually have in common.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 31 2014, 02:21

Just read a very interesting article in today's NY Post where the son of Hamas' founder says Hamas' intentions are to build a caliphate on the "rubble" of all other societies in the world. He sides with Israel and says Hamas doesn't care how many people on either side are killed.

Sorry I don't know how to post. Maybe someone else could.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Thu Jul 31 2014, 02:29

LizzyNY wrote:Way20ld - Unless and until both sides of this mess sit down in good faith and work together to find a common ground there will be no end to the problem. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. Thay've both inflicted enough pain on the other to last for generations and I'm afraid they won't stop until there's no one left to fight.

The world created this problem when Palestine was partitioned and now it will probably take the whole world to stop it. Only God knows how, but there has to be a solution.


You'd think so, wouldn't you?

But here's a problem. Countries or states or territories or lands or whatever established based on religion alone are by nature insular. "The world" isn't allowed in, and so they become tied to only their own perspectives and "solutions." There is no room for seeds of alternative thinking to grow. They cling to tradition and history for preservation. That's not necessarily a bad thing -- unless tradition and history teach them that their survival is predicated on the extinction of another culture.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 31 2014, 02:43

Way2Old - That's why I said only God has the answer- if there is one - because Hamas wants to take over the world. Way too depressing to think about tonight.

BTW, how's the project coming?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by What Would He Say on Thu Jul 31 2014, 13:18

I am totally partisan in this matter ….I am black and white….And I don’t care who knows or what  people think.

Get the Women and Children OUT NOW!  Arab kids/Israeli Kids …. I don’t care……but

GET  ALL THE  KIDS OUT NOW!

In second World War Jewish children were evacuated, why not now!

Muslim families and Jewish families all over Europe would be happy to help.


Then let Hamas and Israel blow themselves to their respective Kingdom come.
BUT DON'T INFLICT TORTURE ON INNOCENT CHILDREN.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Thu Jul 31 2014, 14:56

I totally agree

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by sparkie on Thu Jul 31 2014, 14:59

Golda Meir said many years ago "until the arabs love their children more than they hate their enemies there will never be peace" never more relevant in light what is happening all over the world at the moment. I feel so very blessed to live in Australia.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Thu Jul 31 2014, 15:22

http://espresso.repubblica.it/plus/articoli/2014/07/30/news/nemici-inseparabili-parla-amos-oz-1.174983

I found it interesting
I will try to transl


Israelis and Palestinians inseparable enemies "Netanyahu has fallen into the trap of Hamas"


Amos Oz puts a condition to talk about the ongoing war between the State of Israel and Hamas, "an unconventional, but procedure times are out of the ordinary", justifies itself. "I want to be I put the first two questions and give answers," says with a voice altered that betrays the emotion of this Lord 75enne, usually quiet, extremely rational, for decades in the forefront in fighting for peace, for a compromise with Palestinians and writer among the most popular and famous in the world.

"Well, the first question is: what does when his neighbour starts sitting on the terrace with her son on his knees, pulls out the gun and began firing towards the bedroom of her children?". Continues: "the second question is, what it does when his neighbor dig a tunnel from their children's bedroom door to his bedroom to kill or seize his family?». And what is the answer, Mr Oz? «Her in those cases called the police. But here there's no police. Unfortunately there is no international police. "
Oz, recovering from some surgeries at the Hospital (' nothing serious '), has just returned home to Tel Aviv (comfortable, not at all luxurious, the home that might have an engineer or a doctor after thirty years of work), where he moved from the Negev desert to stay close to his grandchildren. The family and also the relationships between neighbors have always been at the center of his narrative and universe of life. It is therefore no coincidence that to talk about what is happening today in the Holy land uses a metaphor that refers to the family and the neighbourhood, indeed. And he never tires of repeating that Israelis and Palestinians look, because the conflict is a tragedy because both sides are right, and how to go on living without murdering each other take a ' divorce ', to live together ' from home, separated with a space Division negotiated and accepted, and hope to come back one day, to have civil relationships ".

But now there is little civil. There is blood and death. Above all there is the impression that the right-wing government led by Benjamin Netanyahu, is using disproportionate means (more than a thousand dead, whole neighborhoods razed to the ground) in response to the challenge launched by Hamas (hundreds of rockets fired at the Jewish State, attempts to penetrate into Israeli territory to kill civilians and soldiers). To put it clearly, the feeling is as follows: Netanyahu behaves as if the time horizon of the Jewish State was only a few years, as if the Prime Minister does not believe that Israel is a consolidated reality and legitimate, and how if you want to earn a few years still, life without thinking about how they will live the grandchildren and great-grandchildren between 30 or 70 yearsSince the bubble of hatred grows in bombing bombing.

Oz reacts harshly: ' don't forget the fourth article of the paper Hamas's programme: it says that it is the duty of Muslims to kill Jews anywhere in the world, regardless of the Palestinian question. " Adds: "in the same document you cite the" protocols of the elders of Zion "(anti-Semitic pamphlet of the early twentieth century, ndr) and asserts that Jews rule the world in the field of economy, international organisations, and which were the Jews for having caused the first and the second world war '. Is silent for a minute, the voice becomes serene, finally smiles and says: "now we can talk about politics and Netanyahu."

And then again from international police was missing in the former Yugoslavia and in Rwanda, missing in Syria and Libya. And because there is, what do you do between Israel and Hamas? «Try to ask what it do to a person who is falling from the roof, while located at the 8th floor». And then? «Will eventually collapse, of one or of both parties '. No hope? «Any», Oz it stirs: «a way out, although hypothetical, there is today. It was not necessary to arrive at this situation. It was necessary to speak with the Palestinian national authority. Reopen dialogue with Abu Mazen. You can do it again. You can always propose a peace agreement. The contents? Have been known for years, for decades. End of the occupation, two States, Israel and Palestine, with Jerusalem the capital of both. " Continues: "If a Palestinian State were prosperous and peaceful existed in the West Bank, Gaza residents seeing how their brothers in Hebron and Nablus, would make Hamas leaders the same fate that the Romanians did do Ceausescu."

And then we talk about Netanyahu. The premier led his entire political career leveraging on fear of the Israelis, not on hope. Oz raises his voice again: he and the right are anachronistic phenomenon. Do not belong to the 21st century, and even to the twentieth century. Are men and women of the nineteenth century. Their idea of the nation and patriotism, and even hysteria, are part of that period. ' He pauses and says: "I have the impression that Netanyahu has fallen into the trap of Hamas. Hamas has a simple philosophy: it is good to kill the Israelis, but it is even better if Israel is to kill people in Gaza. Hamas WINS in both cases, whether killing Israelis or Israelis kill civilians. I repeat, ' continues, "we are in this terrible situation because the premier refused to sign the peace agreement with Abu Mazen."

And so we come to the crux of the colonists. There are about 300 thousand, reside in the occupied territories. Armed oppose any idea of a Palestinian State or territorial compromise. In that environment has grown the assassin of Yitzhak Rabin, the General became Prime Minister in 1993 and signed the first agreement of recognition between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization of Yasser Arafat. Netanyahu is a hostage of the colonists? «Some», is the answer. "But he doesn't think differently from them. Being a man of the 19th century, is convinced that the larger the territory and the stronger the country. And think that we must keep the Holy places. Even that is an anachronism. However, I would add: Hamas is even more anachronistic, they speak the language of the sixth century. "

Oz continues its reflection: «we are to madness. The aim of Zionism was not to conquer the city, the tombs of biblical prophets, but instead give the Jews a country in which to live as free men and women and responsible for their own fate and future. " Marks the words as if it were a rally: "I like millions of other Israelis are ready to fight for my freedom and for my life, are not willing to fight, kill and die for the holy sites." And for that matter a year ago Oz, along with daughter Fania, he published a book, "the Jews and the words" (Feltrinelli), explaining how the Jewish identity in the texts themselves, in food, in festivities and in the transmission of certain words between generations in the family, and not in the holiness of places. Then come back to the issue of the murder of Rabin in 1995, point of no return for Israeli society: ' we all know that Rabin was sentenced to death by the colonists ' environments, we know who the rabbis have issued rulings (religious style, ndr) I referred to as a "traitor". And fanatics and neo-Nazis are everywhere. Israel, in this regard, is no different. "

The fascist squadristi seen today, while attacking the Arabs on the street, or attempt to assault the manifestations of someone who disagrees with the Gaza war. But the Israeli is a democratic society. After the war, what will happen? "It is too early to respond," says Oz. "But let's look at the numbers. The last elections, a year and a half ago, the Likud block, and religious settlers got 61 seats in the Knesset. The parties of the Center and left, combined, have won 59 mandates. Each scenario is opened, the company is divided into two and moving. " In other words: Netanyahu, according to polls, enjoys a great consensus. And it's hard to be surprised (says Oz: "Let us not forget that we are dealing with an enemy, Hamas, which wants the genocide"). But in Israel, include experts, wars usually end with committees of inquiry, dismissal of Governments and rapid political changes.

And in fact these days it comes to a turmoil at the top of the armed forces, unhappy for too burdensome task required by the Government, both from the military point of view, both in terms of civilian casualties in the Palestinian camp.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Atalante on Thu Jul 31 2014, 17:13

America sells weapons to Israel and to Qatar. Hamas resides in Qatar, no ? Well hello America.  Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 31 2014, 18:11

Not sure what you mean by "Hamas resides in Qatar"..... But yes Qatar supports Hamas and the US knows. See below link. But to be honest, every country is selling weapons to every country. Germany too, Belgium too. See second link below...No country is innocent if it comes to sell weapons....So for me it is not "Hello America" it is "Hello World"  Razz 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/qatari-tech-helps-hamas-in-tunnels-rockets-expert/

“The US is aware of what is going on, but Qatar has spent a lot of money to ensure it has a good relationship with Washington — witness Secretary of State John Kerry’s insistence that Qatar be included in negotiations on a cease-fire in Gaza. What does Qatar have to do with this? Unfortunately, as long as Qatar has billions to spend on Al-Jazeera, terror tunnels, and US weapons systems, there is little Israel is going to be able to stop Doha.”


http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/profit-and-proliferation-a-special-report-on-belgian-arms-in-the-arab-uprising-part-i/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

“A lot of Belgian weapons are now in circulation in Libya and probably elsewhere in West and East Africa, exacerbating tensions and conflicts.”

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 31 2014, 20:12

Just a an interesting sidebar: An Egyptian friend of mine spent about 5 years, from 1987 - l992 traveling all over the Middle East. He lived in Iraq for over 2 years and said it was the safest place he ever lived because the laws were so strictly enforced. Saddam killed or imprisoned anyone who bothered him, including members of the terrorist groups that are wreaking havoc today.

I'm not proposing any kind of Saddam-like dictatorship or saying that I approve of them. However, it does seem that if the countries where the terrorists operate had acted to stop them earlier they might have been successful. Instead they let the genie out of the bottle and now we're all suffering the consequences.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 31 2014, 21:03

LizzyNY wrote:Just a an interesting sidebar: An Egyptian friend of mine spent about 5 years, from 1987 - l992 traveling all over the Middle East. He lived in Iraq for over 2 years and said it was the safest place he ever lived because the laws were so strictly enforced. Saddam killed or imprisoned anyone who bothered him, including members of the terrorist groups that are wreaking havoc today.

I'm not proposing any kind of Saddam-like dictatorship or saying that I approve of them. However, it does seem that if the countries where the terrorists operate had acted to stop them earlier they might have been successful. Instead they let the genie out of the bottle and now we're all suffering the consequences.

Sounds interesting but I don't think you could have stopped them early enough. And there is the question which are the countries where the terrorists operate. And when would have been "early enough" to stop them? It is not only the Middle East...

Terrorists are hard to catch as their operate everywhere in the world and alone and good connected but they are not a nation. It is hard to find them. Remember the bombing in London and Spain. You never know when they hit.

And Remember that Bin Laden worked many years together with the US. He was even trained by the CIA until they had political differences about the Chechnya war and then he turned against the US and became a terrorist and their enemy. He bombed years before a lot of US embassies in Africa before 9/11 happened. Today maybe someone is no terrorist and tomorrow suddenly people you worked with are.

We had strong terrorism in Europe too (it is not only the middle east) in the 70' and 80's and 90's. Bombs exploded and politician got killed. In Germany the 70's and 80's were pretty bad. Here about terrorism in Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Germany

England had lot's of terrorism too. Just remember the IRA in the Ireland/England conflict. The 70's, 80's and 90's were really bad too. Here more infos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain

I think the countries could have not really done something....Lot of people became terrorists because they think they fight against unfairness.....

Terrorism was always there and everywhere in the wold and always very strong but came more in peoples head after 9/11. As it hit America a country which seems always protected from it.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 31 2014, 21:35

Gaza conflict: US says Israeli attack on UN school was 'totally unacceptable'


White House's strongest and most explicit condemnation of Israel comes as Palestinian leaders prepare for talks on short ceasefire

Israel has come under heavy pressure from the US to curtail civilian deaths after concluding that its forces were likely to have been behind the shelling of a UN school.


In what amounted to the strongest and most explicit condemnation of Israel since the Gaza conflict began, President Barack Obama's press secretary on Thursday called the attack "totally unacceptable" and "totally indefensible". He also said the administration was urging Israel to do more to avoid civilian deaths and said US officials were taking issue with "specific military decisions" by Israel. "It is clear that we need our allies in Israel to do more to live up to the high standards they have set themselves."
The EU issued a similar statement.


US officials had initially declined to apportion blame for the shelling, even though the UN said all of the evidence pointed to Israel. On Thursday, after Israel conceded it was operating in the area and said it was possible that "stray Israeli fire" hit the school and killed 16 Palestinians, the White House shifted its stance.


The angry words from Washington came as Palestinian leaders prepared to hold talks in Egypt on Friday on a short ceasefire they hope will help end the three-week Israeli offensive, which has now killed some 1,400 people in Gaza. Prospects for success look deeply uncertain but Israel signalled that it could stop fighting without any agreement.


Disagreements were reported on Thursday over the composition of a Palestinian delegation ahead of the negotiations in Cairo, with Hamas officials insisting that there would be no truce until it was agreed to lift the seven-year blockade of the coastal territory by Israel and Egypt.


But there were also signs of possible readiness for a deal as Mahmoud al-Zahar, a senior Hamas leader, declared: "The Palestinian people will be marking their victory in the very near future." Khalil al-Haya, another Hamas official, said that if Israel wanted a way out of the crisis it had to accept Palestinian terms.


The team is likely to be headed by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, along with other officials of the Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority. Islamic Jihad, another militant Gaza faction, will also be represented.


Al Sharq al-Awsat, a Saudi-owned paper, reported that the intention is to work towards a three or five-day ceasefire to be followed by negotiations in Cairo on a permanent agreement.


In Israel, attention focused on military operations in Gaza, the funerals of the latest of the 56 soldiers who have been killed, and the rockets which continued to be fired from the enclave despite Israeli claims that the Palestinian arsenal had now been heavily depleted.


And there was an uncompromising message about the terms of any truce. Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, said after a cabinet meeting that Israel would continue destroying the "terror tunnels" crossing from Gaza into Israel whether or not there was a ceasefire. "I will not accept any proposal that does not allow the army to complete this important mission for the people of Israel," Netanyahu said. It was the "first stage of the demilitarisation" of Gaza – a demand he claimed was supported by the US and EU.


Netanyahu's remarks came two days after Hamas released a video of fighters climbing out of a tunnel into Israel and attacking a base in a raid Israeli officials said claimed the lives of five soldiers.
Early on Thursday the army announced the call-up of another 16,000 reservists – despite calls for an immediate ceasefire.


Israeli officials briefed that a truce would have to be based on a proposal put forward by Egypt – suggesting that conditions proposed by Qatar and Turkey, both supporters of Hamas, would not be acceptable. Two senior Israeli security officials held consultations in Cairo on Wednesday, underlining close coordination between the two countries, but no details of their talks were released.


Israel Radio reported a senior army officer as saying that a ceasefire should allow Israel continued access to border areas of Gaza in order to allow it to destroy new tunnels dug once this bout of fighting was over. Tunnelling by Hamas had been set back five years, the unnamed officer claimed, adding that "scores" of its fighters were buried in tunnels that had been destroyed.


Hamas's tunnelling activities had gone on round the clock for months, he said. Israeli media also reported residents in communities near the Gaza border complaining that they had heard noises underground and reported them to the army but that investigations had not uncovered anything suspicious.


In New York, the UN security council was expected to call again for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza after the furious international condemnation of the attack on a UN school. Referring to that incident, and to a later attack, the EU said in a statement: "It is unacceptable that innocent displaced civilians, who were taking shelter in designated UN areas after being called on by the Israeli military to evacuate their homes, have been killed." The EU was "deeply concerned at the catastrophic humanitarian situation in Gaza" and called on all sides to "immediately allow safe and full humanitarian access for the urgent distribution of assistance".


Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, said she believed Israel was deliberately defying international law and that world powers should hold it accountable for possible war crimes. "This is why again and again I say we cannot allow impunity; we cannot allow this lack of accountability to go on." Hamas had also violated international humanitarian law by firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel, sometimes from densely-populated areas, Pillay said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/gaza-conflict-us-israeli-attack-un-school

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Sun Aug 03 2014, 04:23

I think this man clearly explains exactly what Hamas wants.

He's a Brit and he's not Jewish.



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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Sun Aug 03 2014, 05:29

Thanks Lorna - You found a voice of rationality in a sea of hypocrisy. This man should be heard all over the world.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Aug 03 2014, 06:35

can someone pl put down on written words what he said? can't hear it now
thanks

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Maggy on Sun Aug 03 2014, 08:09

Thanks Lorna for the video.

I hope Hamas is finally defeated for the sake of the Palestinian people and Israel. 

It's Me, in a few words: Hamas doesn't want peace, ever. Is using his own people as
shield. Hamas believes all Jews must die at all cost.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Aug 03 2014, 10:01

scaring
is this the same from Israel to them?

is ALL ppl feelings the same?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by theminis on Sun Aug 03 2014, 10:48

Truly if God exists, there must be tears in heaven after witnessing such atrocities from human beings who have the capacity to reason, to show compassion, to change but insist on behaving like animals. There is no point debating right from wrong, when there are so many innocent victims caught up in this situation. There is no winning here if that is the end game. This conflict as well as many others can only change for the better when the people involved understand that every single life is sacred regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, when they can look into the eyes of their own children and know that their survival, their happiness, their innocence must become more sacred to them than any ideal, any religion.

Sorry if I sound preachy but I just watched news reports of Palestinian and Israeli children who are fighting for there lives in hospital, some who will die and the most depressing part was that their mothers said their child's suffering was worth the cause. I'm very aware I haven't walked in their shoes so shouldn't judge but as a Mother myself I cannot ever imagine standing by the hospital bed of my dying 2 year old and shout with indignation that my child dying is worth anything. Nothing is ever worth the destruction of innocence.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sun Aug 03 2014, 11:22

Very well said theminis, could not have done it better.  Give Flowers  I agree with it and to be honest...I start to lose interest about it now. It was always the same and will always be the same and every discussion about it just makes someone like me feel negative and will not bring a solution anyway........I don't want to feel negative about a conflict I don't live in and most important I have no power to solve it anyway....So I better concentrate on the positive things around me.....

If there will ever be peace in Israel and Palestine I'm sure I will hear about it.

Until then...Happy Sunday  Give Flowers2 

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Aug 03 2014, 11:34

I fear in our life span we won't see peace there ...

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Sun Aug 03 2014, 13:51

[quote="Nicky80"]Very well said theminis, could not have done it better.  Give Flowers  I agree with it and to be honest...I start to lose interest about it now. It was always the same and will always be the same and every discussion about it just makes someone like me feel negative and will not bring a solution anyway........I don't want to feel negative about a conflict I don't live in and most important I have no power to solve it anyway....So I better concentrate on the positive things around me.....

If there will ever be peace in Israel and Palestine I'm sure I will hear about it.

Until then...Happy Sunday   Give Flowers2 /quote]

Nicky - I share your frustration. The situation in the Middle East, not just in Gaza, is horrible. And you're right - it does seem as if it will never end. Unfortunately, if a solution isn't found we may all end up living in this conflict because Hamas' stated goal is to bring their jihad to the whole world.

They want to create a caliphate that rules us all, and they are happy to die trying to establish it. If they are willing to use their own chidren as tools of war, what kinds of horror do you think they will bring to the rest of us? Theymust be stopped. - And for anyone who thinks it's just the Jews Hamas wants dead, think again. Anyone who doesn't pactice their brand of Islam is on their hit list.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sun Aug 03 2014, 14:37

Lizzy I think you misunderstood my post. Yes Hamas must be stopped and if not it can spread so a solution has to be found.

....But what I meant to say was that I as a single person can not stop that conflict. That's a political issue....So if I can not stop it as a single person why discussing negative things like now when we have no influence to that. And why thinking about "the horror they can bring to us"......That's why many people live a negative day to day life by thinking about problems they can not influence but worry about.....

I mean if I would everyday think about who wants to attack the West I would never be happy......So I notice the conflict in Israel and that's all I can do...and I move on with my daily life....  Laughing 


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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Sun Aug 03 2014, 15:11

Nicky,

The point is that we as individuals CAN do something.  We can express our concerns to our governments so that they don't lose sight of their "end game."  We can also make our own children aware that a religion that subjugates anyone especially WOMEN into submissiveness is NOT a religion that they want to become affiliated with.

They often sell a good game - as the man mentioned - they sold the Palestinians a crock of shit to get into power and then as soon as they did - they started killing those who dared to live in any way other than within strict Islamic law.

I recently saw a discussion about Islam in general and one author noted that there are peaceful Muslims but they believe that world wide peace will only be achieved when the entire world is following Islamic rule.

There are only three choices in their religion:  1.  you will convert, 2. you will be subjugated 3. or they will war with you until you either convert, be subjugated or are dead.

That's what the core teachings of their book tells them to do.

So yes, Islam is a religion of peace that will only have peace once their religion is the only religion in the world.

Hamas and groups like them - spend most of their energy on the war part because their goal is to kill ANYONE who does not believe as they do.  They are warring with the Jews of Israel but in places like Iraq and Syria, they are killing Christians.

They've already destroyed Buddhist shrines, for instance, in Afghanistan and continue to destroy ANY sites that are sacred to any religion NOT their own.

It is a religion but to Hamas and groups like them, it is also a political movement. 

So don't kid yourself that it's just a Israel Jewish / Muslim issue.  This will continue as long as they are taught -- starting as children that ALL religions/political systems other than their own need to be destroyed.


Edmund Burke: 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sun Aug 03 2014, 15:21

LornaDoone wrote:Nicky,

The point is that we as individuals CAN do something.  We can express our concerns to our governments so that they don't lose sight of their "end game."  We can also make our own children aware that a religion that subjugates anyone especially WOMEN into submissiveness is NOT a religion that they want to become affiliated with.


Yes true and that;s the only thing you can do and need to accept that you rely on politics.... That's what I meant when I said above this is a politial issue....About our children...of course you are right...I never meant to say in my post to ignore it and not to teach values about free religion...

LornaDoone wrote:Nicky,  

So don't kid yourself that it's just a Israel Jewish / Muslim issue.  This will continue as long as they are taught -- starting as children that ALL religions/political systems other than their own need to be destroyed.


Edmund Burke: 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

I don't kid myself and I never meant to say or said that it is only a Israel/ Muslim issue. I never said I do nothing.

I think you take my post out of content and turn it to something negative. I didn't mean it so negative you try to interpret it now...but I guess that's what happened when you try to give an opinion about Israel/Palestine.... I heard your opinion. Fair enough. I will not post anymore in this thread.... Too heated....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Sun Aug 03 2014, 15:29

Nicky I'm surprised you took my comments as "heated" as I was just giving you commentary on what we as individuals can do.

If I'm upset at anyone it certainly is not  you or you comments - it's at groups that take "religion" and use it as a way to hurt others just to make their point.

I'm just concerned that too many people might be also be weary of this unending fight and hope it will go away on it's own.  It won't.

I think educating our children and our citizens and not letting only the pro-Palestinian people make their comments  is important.  The true nature of these groups like Hamas cannot be forgotten and cannot be ignored.  Yes, the Palestinians are suffering, but perhaps they need to stop backing groups like Hamas that only put them in harms way and have done NOTHING to help them - as this man said, they have built NO bomb shelters only for themselves and NOT for the Palestinians then maybe their suffering will stop.

Palestinians need to go after the true enemy which is HAMAS.

That way we won't keep talking about "peace process" and treat these groups as what they really are and as what we have labeled them "terrorist groups" whose only goal is to kill anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

So I am sorry you took my words as argumentative to you.  My passion in this comes from the history of evil flourishing because good people said and did nothing until it was too late.

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