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Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Tue Jul 15 2014, 21:19

I'm posting this in Party in the Kitchen since George has not commented on his stance regarding this.  But I'll guess once he's married there will be more discussion of this conflict as it will be very close to his home given Amal's pro Palestine stance.

The opinions expressed are those of the author - but he makes some good points.

http://theweek.com/article/index/264681/israels-bombing-of-gaza-is-morally-justified-mdash-and-eminently-stupid?utm_source=links&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=twitter



 
Israel's bombing of Gaza is morally justified — and eminently stupid

This conflict will accomplish absolutely nothing beyond creating yet more suffering, volatility, and distrust

By Damon Linker | 6:06am ET  July 8, 2014


Israel's many wars have many names. The War for Independence (1948). The Six Day War (1967). The Yom Kippur War (1973). The First Lebanon War (1982-1985). The Second Lebanon War (2006). The Gaza War (2008-2009).

I'd like to propose that Israel's current bombing campaign in Gaza be known henceforth as The Stupid War.

Note that I didn't say The Immoral War. With Hamas and smaller jihadi groups hurling rockets at Israeli cities from the Gaza Strip, Israel is clearly justified in responding. (No nation in the world would accept such a bombardment without striking back.) And though the lopsided body count — over 150 Palestinian dead compared to zero Israeli casualties — is striking, it's not Israel's fault that its Iron Dome defensive shield has been so effective at protecting Israeli citizens from the more than 800 missiles that have been launched at the country in the past two weeks. If militants in Gaza had better weaponry or Israel was less adept at protecting itself, many would be dead on the Israeli side.

So yes, Israel is morally justified in defending itself against incoming missiles. But that tells us nothing at all about whether the war is wise. And it most certainly is not.

To grasp the war's utter foolishness, you need to go back to the June 12 kidnapping and murder of three Israeli youths in the occupied West Bank. The government of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu knew almost immediately that the teenagers were dead and that the leadership of Hamas likely had nothing to do with it. Yet Netanyahu decided to engage in a breathtaking act of demagoguery. For over two weeks, the public was told that the government believed the boys were alive, and that Hamas was behind the kidnapping. Both statements were blatant lies.

But they were useful lies, since they gave Netanyahu public support for a strong military response, which he used as a pretext for sending the Israel Defense Forces to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations. The result was, according to journalist JJ Goldberg, "a massive, 18-day search-and-rescue operation" in which troops entered "thousands of homes, arresting and interrogating hundreds of individuals" throughout the West Bank.

But that wasn't good enough for the Israeli public, which with each passing day demanded an ever-harsher response to the kidnapping. Having spent more than two weeks whipping up grief and outrage throughout the country, Netanyahu began to lose control of the situation, with far-right members of his own government insisting that the IDF reoccupy Gaza and destroy Hamas. On June 29, the prime minister attempted to placate these calls for vengeance with limited air strikes against a rocket squad in Gaza. That bombing killed a Hamas operative. The first Hamas rockets were fired at Israel the next day.

It was the first rocket barrage launched by Hamas since 2012. And all the rocket attacks that have followed in the intervening two weeks — weeks during which Netanyahu's lies were revealed and a young Palestinian was burned alive by three Israeli teenagers in a revenge attack — need to be viewed in the context of this sordid backstory.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become a true tragedy. I mean "tragedy" in the precise sense: a morally wrenching situation for everyone involved from which there appears to be no exit.

Israel — surrounded by hostile powers, still reeling from the collapse of peace negotiations at Taba in early 2001 and the terror of the Second Intifada (2000-2005), still stunned by the rapid ascension of Hamas following unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 — understandably fears for its security and worries that a full withdrawal from the West Bank would engender a Palestinian state that actively seeks to destroy Israel.

Palestine — victim of an injustice stretching back 66 years, disenfranchised and wallowing in poverty, subject to enormous inconveniences and mundane humiliations of decades-long military occupation — understandably falls victim to despair, and is prone to embrace political radicalism, including terrorism, in a desperate attempt to better its sorry, seemingly interminable situation.

That would be bad enough. But it is the catastrophic errors of judgment on both sides that have made the circumstances truly tragic.

Israel's settlement policy in the West Bank is an unequivocal outrage. The building of Israeli apartments and residential neighborhoods, along with supporting infrastructure (roads, electricity, plumbing), deep within occupied territory, is simply not the behavior of a nation that intends to withdraw from that territory. It is the behavior of a nation that intends to hold onto the West Bank for good, relegating the region's Palestinians to permanent non-citizen status, subjected to a future of political powerlessness and degradation as they watch their would-be homeland carved up into a Swiss cheese of military checkpoints and walled-off Israeli enclaves from which they are permanently excluded.

Meanwhile, the Palestinian choice for political radicalism, including support for Hamas, only confirms the worst fear of Israelis, which is that the Palestinians will only be satisfied with the defeat and destruction of the Jewish state. That empowers the maximalists on the Israeli side, who believe Israel should never give up the West Bank or permit the creation of a Palestinian state.

That is the tragedy — and the powder keg.

It was onto this powder keg that Netanyahu tossed a lit match back in mid-June. Instead of responding like a statesman to the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli teenagers, by announcing the facts of the case right away and seeking to dissipate the predictable rage, he went out of his way to encourage it, hoping he could marshal it for political purposes.

He was wrong. And that appalling error of judgment is what has brought us The Stupid War, which will accomplish absolutely nothing beyond creating yet more suffering, mostly on the Palestinian side. What can Israel possibly hope to gain from its ferocious bombing campaign? It certainly doesn't seem to be stopping the volley of Hamas rocket attacks into Israel. Does Netanyahu expect Palestinians to be cowed into submission? You can't send an effective realpolitik threat when your opponent considers the status quo worse than any bombing campaign Israel dares engage in.

And what if Israel went farther and all but leveled the Gaza Strip and killed thousands of Palestinians? They might be cowed into submission then, but at the cost of inspiring worldwide condemnation the likes of which Israel has never seen. Even Netanyahu surely knows better than to turn Israel into one of the world's foremost pariah states in this way.

So what can Israel possibly hope to achieve?

Maybe a brief suspension of Hamas rocket attacks. Maybe. But soon enough, the region will find itself in a new, even more volatile status quo, weighed down even more heavily by anger and injustice, grievance and fear. Israel's air strikes can lead nowhere but more provocation, more retaliation, and more tragedy for all sides.

And that's why this war is so stupid.

Indeed, if the Swedish Academy gave a Nobel Prize for political idiocy, Benjamin Netanyahu's performance over the past month would make him a shoo-in.

Damon Linker

Damon Linker is a senior correspondent at TheWeek.com. He is also a consulting editor at the University of Pennsylvania Press, a contributing editor at The New Republic, and the author of The Theocons and The Religious Test.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Tue Jul 15 2014, 22:18

Well we do not know if Amal is really pro Palestine. Is was a writer from an article who claims that Amal and her family is pro Palestine but we do not know it for sure.

Anyway, I like the article....The way Israel is reacting at the moment is unbelievable. I think too Israel just used the kidnapping of the youth to bomb them again. If you look at the map below it shows clearly what Israel is trying to do. To terminate Palestine. I mean how much smaller can you make a country?



And many people start to see Israel in a different light at the moment.

Even singer Rihanna tweeted "Free Palestine" see below but she took it off minutes later. I guess she got scared as America is pro Israel.




I don't understand this pro and anti Israel/Palestine anyway. That's not how you make peace if somebody is pro or anti. It is really sad that both countries hate so much and can not overcome it.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by theminis on Tue Jul 15 2014, 23:59

sadly I doubt there is anything that can be done with regard to this situation, they have been fighting for thousands of years in this area and I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Wed Jul 16 2014, 00:50

Here's another reason the whole situation is tragic and stupid.

Israel spends the bulk of its resources on fighting an endless "war." Time, money, citizens, intellect -- all used in conflict. Can you imagine the advances in science, the inventions, the technology that could have come from there over these decades if they spent resources on something besides  fighting?

And in the process, they create generations of increasingly angry and radical enemies. That's just fucking dumb. They will have their land, but they will live in perpetual fear of eventual annihilation.

In the meantime, Palestine wages ineffective retaliation against Israel for show, while allowing the rest of the world to characterize and associate it with irrational terrorism.

As long as the citizens on both sides allow themselves to be led around and lied to for the sake of a righteous stand on issues that have absolutely no relevance in today's world -- except the perpetuation of a straw enemy that guarantees political allegiance for the powerful few -- it will never end.

Crazy is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. So, yeah, we can call it crazy and stupid. But nobody is this fucking crazy. Not for generations, for centuries even. People do things repeatedly only if they get something out of it. The Israelis and the Palestinians all know what they're doing. They have to. The only way this idiocy stops is that we figure out what benefit they're getting, and collectively take it away.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Wed Jul 16 2014, 07:23

right
I am not very informed but
what is the benefit?

control one of   the most important religion place?
or control of a little strip of ground?

what will they get?
some destroyed not very much rich territory
or the indirect winning of who favor one of them?

letting them alone
maybe
this war could have end years ago


am I wrong?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Wed Jul 16 2014, 22:13

There is a movie called Judgment at Nuremberg.  It's about post war Nazi trails.  It stars Maximilan Schell.

Marlena Dietrich is in the film and her character and what she says is a representation of the German populace attitude during the war.

I think the persecution of Jews in Europe in the late 19th Century and leading up to and including WWII and the Holocaust probably explains why Jews are not willing to give up (and in this case continue to occupy) more land in that region.


There is a ton of information about the formation of Israel in modern times at the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel



There is a long history of Jewish / Arab / Christian conflict in that region going back centuries.

Doubt this is ever going to be resolved since all sides think they are right and no one is willing to give an inch.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Wed Jul 23 2014, 18:20

From CNN today - July 23, 2014

What Does Hamas Want?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/mideast-hamas-endgame/index.html



What is Hamas' endgame in Gaza?
 

By Mariano Castillo, CNN
updated 8:36 AM EDT, Wed July 23, 2014
 

Editor's note: This is a companion piece to What is Israel's endgame in Gaza?

 [/size](CNN) -- For three weeks now, Hamas and Israel have been locked in a deadly battle. Each side points to the other for provoking the conflict, which has left scores -- mainly civilians -- dead.

And yet, a cease-fire seems unlikely, in part because the sides don't feel they have accomplished their goals.

What are the goals for Hamas, the organization that governs Gaza and is considered a terrorist organization by many Western powers? And what is it willing to settle for to end the bloodshed?

What Hamas wants:

1. The destruction of Israel.

This mission is written into the preamble of Hamas' founding document: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."

 
It's a demand that is globally repudiated as outrageous. It is unrealistic for Hamas to think that it can somehow destroy Israel. As long as Hamas leaders latch on to that as an endgame, the result will be continued flare-ups for years to come.

 
Some Hamas leaders have stated a willingness to accept peace with Israel under certain conditions, the Council on Foreign Relations notes in a report. For instance, they want Palestinian refugees to be able to return. But such voices are not being heard in the current conflict.

 
If Hamas is incapable of destroying Israel, it might still be dedicated to scaring Israelis off the contested land, journalist Jeffrey Goldberg at The Atlantic posits.

 
"The goal of Hamas—the actual, overarching goal—is to terrorize the Jews of Israel, through mass murder, into abandoning their country," Goldberg wrote. "If generations of Palestinians have to be sacrificed to that goal, well, Hamas believes such sacrifices are theologically justified."

 
CNN Middle East analyst Michael Oren, a former Israeli ambassador to the United States, suggests a different type of war -- a media campaign by Hamas.

 
"Hamas knows it can't destroy Israel with its rockets or tunnels, but it can create a legal and international situation where Israel can no longer legitimately defend itself," he said.

 
Reports of civilian casualties in Gaza -- without the context of rockets being fired at Israel -- play into Hamas' media strategy, he said.

 
2. An end to the Israeli blockade.

Although Israel withdrew its forces from Gaza in 2005 and dismantled Israeli settlements, Palestinians say they continue to live under occupation to this day.

Palestinians argue that Israel still maintains effective control of Gaza, making it an occupied territory. Israel controls Gaza's borders, waters and airspace -- and oversees what goods make it into the territory.

 
CNN's Ben Wedeman recently spoke with Ismail Haniyeh, who is essentially the prime minister of Gaza. The Hamas member gave his demands -- namely, an immediate end to what he called the Israeli aggression. He wants border crossings to Israel and Egypt opened.

 
In a 2012 interview with CNN, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal had a similar message.

 
"The resistance is a means to an end," Meshaal told CNN's Christiane Amanpour. "The endgame is to end occupation but the international community is not enabling us to do this. They are biased towards Israel."

 
Hamas wants a cease-fire, Hamas spokesman Osama Hamdam said of the current conflict, but it wants assurances that the Palestinians will be able to live peacefully.

 
"No one is talking against having a cease-fire. But we want a fair cease-fire to protect our own people for a long time, to protect them from the Israeli military attacks, from the siege, from the arrests," Hamdam told CNN's Wolf Blitzer.

 
3. The release of prisoners.

 
In 2011, a captured Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was released by Hamas in exchange for more than a thousand Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. Many have since been re-arrested.

 
Dozens of other Palestinians were arrested in the aftermath of the June 12 kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, an incident which precipitated the current fighting.

 
There is a precedent of Palestinian prisoners being released in negotiations with Hamas. This demand by Hamas is also among the most straightforward it has presented.

 
"Israel is not respecting its commitment by releasing and then arresting prisoners released," said Zaki Chehab, a leading Arab journalist and political editor of Hayat. "It's a sign that Israel has not respected its commitment."

 
The conditions that Hamas is making is not something unjustified, he told CNN. "They have a right to make a request because they've been under siege."

 
4. Rally support at home.

Some analysts argue that Hamas is engaged in a battle with Israel to shore up support among Palestinians.

 
Many Palestinians believe that Israel has no intention of finding long-term peace, and they are likely to support Hamas in greater numbers if they view the militants as standing up for their rights.

 
"Hamas gains strength from the feeling of many Palestinians of despair that they see settlement growth. They don't believe that Israel has any intention of giving them a state of their own. And so when Hamas says what good is there for us to accept Israel's right to exist since Israel will never give us a state anyway, that makes Hamas stronger," CNN political commentator Peter Beinart said.
 

During the last prolonged outbreak between the two sides in 2012, many concluded that Hamas gained credibility at the expense of other Palestinian leadership factions, according to a Council on Foreign Relations report.

 
In the period since 2012, Hamas has seen the number of governments friendly to it diminish, and its influence wane.

 
"Hamas finds itself in a very difficult situation, and has for a couple years now," writes Natan B. Sachs, a fellow at Brookings' Center for Middle East Policy. "Since 2012, when Egypt was governed by a president from the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas' parent organization), Hamas' fortunes have declined precipitously."

 
Strapped for cash and possibly losing popularity, Hamas operatives may have decided that they had little to lose in entering a conflict.

 
It's possible, Sachs said, that Hamas militants may not always be under the control of its political wing, and that this current conflict is the result of Hamas losing control of its cadres.





What is Israel's endgame in Gaza?


By Ben Brumfield,[/size] CNN[/size]

updated 8:24 AM EDT, Wed July 23, 201

  
Editor's note: This is a companion piece to What is Hamas's endgame in Gaza?

 
(CNN) -- A river of blood runs through Gaza, as homes are smashed to rubble and hospital emergency rooms overflow. The volley of Hamas rockets into Israel continues, even when met with the preeminent firepower of the Israeli military's bombs, missiles and shells.

 
The legions of dead are swelling by the hundreds. It's horrifying. But the world has seen it all before -- twice. Operation Protective Edge looks much like its forerunners in 2008 and 2012.

 
Hamas won't back down. And Israel refuses to stop until it feels the job is done.
    

Millions around the world watch and ask: What could Israel hope to achieve?

 
CNN put that question and others to two seasoned Israeli columnists: one a former military correspondent, the other a human rights journalist focusing on Palestinians.

 
Though they disagreed on many points, they surprisingly concurred on some others. This is how they answered:

 
1. What is Israel's endgame in this operation?


There is none. Both expert agree on that.

 
But though Israel may not be working toward one dramatic outcome, there are concrete objectives, says military writer Ron Ben-Yishai.

 
There are short-term and long-term goals that are worth it for Israel, he argues.

 
Many of them will work, concedes critical columnist Gideon Levy. But he disagrees about their wisdom.

 
They won't cure the disease but instead feed it, he argues. It will turn the violence into a recurring nightmare.

 
2. What is the immediate military objective? 
 
The conservative government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wants to stop the Hamas rocket fire. The mission will also weaken Hamas, Ben-Yishai says.

 
"Erode the political clout and the ability of Hamas to act both as a political and military-terrorist movement," those are the objectives, he says.

 
In the meantime that mission has expanded to destroying underground tunnels, which Hamas militants use to get into Israel and attack.

 
Ben-Yishai is confident the goals can be achieved.

 
"For the short-run, no doubt," Levy concurs. But he thinks Hamas will come back stronger after Protective Edge, both militarily and politically.

 
He cites Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012 and Operation Cast Lead in 2008. In Cast Lead, 1,300 Palestinians and more than a dozen Israelis died. Afterward, Hamas made a full recovery, he said.

color=#000000] [/color]
3. What sparked this round of conflict? 

color=#000000] [/color]
Levy sees the rocket fire from Gaza as the boiling over of cumulative tensions.

He points to the peace process initiated by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry between Israel and Palestinians. The one that broke down weeks ago.

 
The whole time, someone was missing from the negotiating table, he said. "Gaza was ignored totally."

 
Youth killings, of three Israeli teens and then one Palestinian teen, ignited passions on both sides.


Add to that the desperation in Gaza. The narrow strip of land is locked in on all sides, and people there live in dire poverty and deprivation. "Gaza is today the biggest cage in the world," Levy says.

 
The rocket fire is just a part of it all, he says. It's a way of Hamas pounding the table.



Ben-Yishai sees it the other way around. Israel has tried peace and calm with the troublesome Hamas militants, and it hasn't worked out.



"This formula is out of the game. It's not in the cards now," he says. The military option has become inevitable.



4. What makes Protective Edge different?


Ben-Yishai agrees with Levy's assessment that Hamas militants have come back stronger since the last military operation -- in at least one sense.
 

They have more long-range rockets. Previously, militants had to import them all from the outside. Now they can also construct them themselves, he says.


They've also buried a network of launch sites below the ground's surface. Hitting them "is quite a job," Ben-Yishai says.



The Israeli military will have to strike deep into those systems.


Levy says the improvement in weaponry is part of the vicious cycle he's seen before. The Israeli military destroys the militants' capabilities; they come back stronger.
 

"By the next operation, they will be even better equipped," he says. So will the Israelis.


Hamas has also inflicted more casualties on Israel this time around -- 29 soldiers have died in the Gaza ground incursion, whereas just over a dozen died in Cast Lead.


If too many Israelis die, it could have an effect on Israeli public opinion and perhaps turn things around, Levy says. But so far, the public is showing much support for the operation in Gaza.



5. What will be the lasting effects of the operation?


The government hopes that Protective Edge will give Israel a few years of relative peace, restore normalcy for a time, Ben-Yishai says.


"After every round of hostility ... there is a sort of lull that Israel enjoys very much," he says. People can think about other things and tackle other issues, like the economy.


But it's not nearly worth the cost, Levy says. Droves of Palestinians will be killed, others' lives ruined. Even from a purely selfish standpoint, it's at best an empty victory.


"We will see horrible scenes," he says. "The world will condemn Israel. And what comes out of it? One year of peace."


Ben-Yishai believes there is a permanent gain to be made, that repeated operations in Gaza will wear the enemy down until they stop firing rockets altogether
 

The result will be the opposite, Levy says.


He predicts that this military intervention will set the stage for the next bloodcurdling intervention -- and then the next.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/meast/mideast-israel-endgame/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Wed Jul 23 2014, 21:45

At this point I don't think there's anything Israel could do that would please Hamas, other than packing up and going away. Hamas is playing a waiting game, figuring someday there will be a united Palestine with Israel only a memory.

Israel is just fighting to survive.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Atalante on Wed Jul 23 2014, 22:34

Link Interesting ...

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by PigPen on Wed Jul 23 2014, 22:44

LizzyNY wrote:At this point I don't think there's anything Israel could do that would please Hamas, other than packing up and going away. Hamas is playing a waiting game, figuring someday there will be a united Palestine with Israel only a memory.

Israel is just fighting to survive.
Agree.  What's going on and what is motivating it, depends on who you speak with.  One of my co-workers has family in Israel. Care to know his thoughts?? This has been going on for so long with so many twists and turns... hard to keep up.  What is it, about 200 years that the battle for Gaza has been going on. 

Doubt George will make a comment any time soon.. too much of a hotbed.  Even he, who loves to take a stand, knows when to sit tight.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Wed Jul 23 2014, 22:58

@ Pigpen -Especially when he's engaged to someone sympathetic to the Arab position. He needs to stay out of this - it isn't his fight and getting involved could only hurt him, IMO. He has enough on his hands with his involvement in South Sudan.

Short of blowing each other to hell (and taking the rest of us with them) there's probably no solution to the Israel/Palestine problem in our lifetimes.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by PigPen on Wed Jul 23 2014, 23:02

Or unless Amal does get involved somehow.  Then his position may be one of defending her.  As time goes by, depending on her cases, he may be called upon more than once to do this.  Just MO.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Thu Jul 24 2014, 00:21

Atalante wrote:Link Interesting ...



This blowhard seems to forget about all the millions of Jews who were exterminated during WWII.


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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 24 2014, 00:51

Lorna - I don't think he's forgetting the Holocaust - just focusing on the situation as it is today. They're fighting over the land, and have been since Israel became a state. Since then both sides have given the other plenty of reasons for hatred, so revenge is a factor, too.

What bothers me more is the rise of anti-semitism in the rest of the world. Those are the people who, IMO, are forgetting about WW II.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 24 2014, 08:04

LizzyNY wrote:At this point I don't think there's anything Israel could do that would please Hamas, other than packing up and going away. Hamas is playing a waiting game, figuring someday there will be a united Palestine with Israel only a memory.

Israel is just fighting to survive.

Or the other way around. To be honest I don't think Israel or Palestine fighting to survive. They are fighting due to hate and don't accept each other.....

LornaDoone wrote:
Atalante wrote:Link Interesting ...



This blowhard seems to forget about all the millions of Jews who were exterminated during WWII.


LizzyNY wrote:Lorna - I don't think he's forgetting the Holocaust -  just focusing on the situation as it is today. They're fighting over the land, and have been since Israel became a state. Since then both sides have given the other plenty of reasons for hatred, so revenge is a factor, too.

What bothers me more is the rise of anti-semitism in the rest of the world. Those are the people who, IMO, are forgetting about WW II.


I think that is the problem in the Israel/Palestine conflict. to many governments let it happen no one really wants to put a stop to it. And everyone is scared that they are getting accused of forgetting WW II or being anti semitism......

What happen in WWII is surly the most awful thing ever happen but it does not give you the right to kill another nation as an excuse for it. And that sometimes how it feels to me when Israel bombs Palestine..... Israel bombed yesterday a hospital.....Of course this brings hate and you see all over the wold protest against Israel as they are much stronger then Palestine......Even President Obama is not happy with Israel's actions and asked them to stop the conflict. Was kind of a surprise to hear that from an American President as the US is always pro Israel....

USA Russia or Europe we all get those hate protests when war happens somewhere.....When our chancellor started to tell countries like Italy, Greece, Spain etc to start saving they household due to too much depth in their country people went on the street with a picture of our chancellor looking like Adolf Hitler.....Today whatever you do, when people don't like something, they fall back to WWII to argue they case. 

And let's not forget what happen now started due some teenagers who got kidnapped....When Mexicans would kidnap 3 American teenagers and kill them and Americans would kidnapped as revenge a Mexican teenager and burn him alive...Would America still bomb Mexico.....????

There is so much behind it. I don't believe in "the poor Jewish" or the "poor Palestine"....It is all a hate and power question. Both parties just looking for reasons to kill each other..... No one is a victim or a survivor expect of the children there....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 24 2014, 08:08

LizzyNY wrote:Lorna - I don't think he's forgetting the Holocaust -  just focusing on the situation as it is today. They're fighting over the land, and have been since Israel became a state. Since then both sides have given the other plenty of reasons for hatred, so revenge is a factor, too.

What bothers me more is the rise of anti-semitism in the rest of the world. Those are the people who, IMO, are forgetting about WW II.

Yes agree with this one...not many can focus on the situation today and always fall back at WWII. Probably that's why it is so difficult to find a solution for this problem....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 24 2014, 08:13

PigPen wrote:Or unless Amal does get involved somehow.  Then his position may be one of defending her.  As time goes by, depending on her cases, he may be called upon more than once to do this.  Just MO.

I don't think Amal or George would get ever involved in this. This conflict is so complicated they need politicians to solve that issue not Hollywood....Not that I want to talk down to Amal or George (or Hollywood) but I think this conflict is much more dangerous and complicated then South Sudan.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 24 2014, 14:49

Nicky - There are so many reasons why these people hate each other that I don't think they'll ever stop fighting. The longer this goes on the more reasons they have to hate.

A couple of points to keep in mind: 1. The state of Israel was established by the UN after WWII because Jewish refugees had nowhere else to go. They were refused entry by many countries during the war, so returned to their biblical homeland. There were already many Jews in Palestine, who got along fairly well with their Arab neighbors until partition.

2. Sadly, there have been more casualties in the Arab community than in Israel (although any death, on either side, is a tragedy). This is partly due to the fact that Hamas operates in the middle of civilian communities and partly to the fact that Israel, at the moment, is better armed than Hamas. Thanks to other Arab countries this is changing, and Hamas is getting more powerful and sophisticated weapons.Would you feel better if the death toll on both sides was equal?

Any nation, Israel included, has the right to defend itself from attack. Isn't that why we're all so upset about what's happening in Ukraine? Why should Israel be held to a different standard? Hamas has been saying for years that they want Israel gone and they will do whatever it takes to achieve this goal. Israel is fighting to survive. They don't want to wipe out their Arab neighbors - they just want their Arab neighbors to stop trying to kill them.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by PigPen on Thu Jul 24 2014, 16:57

Nicky80 wrote:
PigPen wrote:Or unless Amal does get involved somehow.  Then his position may be one of defending her.  As time goes by, depending on her cases, he may be called upon more than once to do this.  Just MO.

I don't think Amal or George would get ever involved in this. This conflict is so complicated they need politicians to solve that issue not Hollywood....Not that I want to talk down to Amal or George (or Hollywood) but I think this conflict is much more dangerous and complicated then South Sudan.
Nicky, there had been mention of war crimes on both sides (CNN).  My thought was, if her law group is asked to represent him/her to assure a fair trial, she would be involved.

  Side note..somewhere amongst the threads it was discussed if Amal can choose to represent someone, or if because of her Jr status within the firm, she is assigned cases she may not want to be involved with.  Question, if she is as brilliant as told ( articles prove she is at least intelligent in these matters, if not brilliant), why not work for another firm?  I'm sure she has offers. And given her new social status as the future Mrs... I'm confident several firms would profit from the publicity.  Just a thought..

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Thu Jul 24 2014, 19:47

LizzyNY wrote:.....
2. Sadly, there have been more casualties in the Arab community than in Israel (although any death, on either side, is a tragedy). This is partly due to the fact that Hamas operates in the middle of civilian communities and partly to the fact that Israel, at the moment, is better armed than Hamas. Thanks to other Arab countries this is changing, and Hamas is getting more powerful and sophisticated weapons.Would you feel better if the death toll on both sides was equal?

Weird question to ask Lizzy. Do you really think I would say yes to that?  Shocked  If you got this impression out of my post above then it was not worth writing.  Rolling Eyes 

LizzyNY wrote:.....
Any nation, Israel included, has the right to defend itself from attack. Isn't that why we're all so upset about what's happening in Ukraine? Why should Israel be held to a different standard? Hamas has been saying for years that they want Israel gone and they will do whatever it takes to achieve this goal. Israel is fighting to survive. They don't want to wipe out their Arab neighbors - they just want their Arab neighbors to stop trying to kill them.

That's what I tried to explain above. Yes every nation has the right to defend itself. So also Palestine.....As you wrote again that Israel is fighting to survive...I don't think either of them is fighting to survive they are fighting to destroy...big difference.... 

And I'm not pro Israel or Palestine....I think both countries are very disappointing by hating each other so badly.....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 24 2014, 22:32

Nicky - It is disappointing that people can act this way, but it seems to be part of human nature. I, too, am neither pro-Palestine or pro-Israel. Often I want to say "a pox on both their houses", but what they do will affect the rest of the world. Mostly I pray for a peaceful settlement to their problem - although I don't think even Solomon could solve it.

I didn't mean to offend you with my question. Maybe I used the wrong words. I was just trying to say that it doesn't matter how many people on either side are killed. Any deaths on either side are equally awful.


Last edited by LizzyNY on Thu Jul 24 2014, 22:40; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Maggy on Thu Jul 24 2014, 22:33

From a biblical perspective:

http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html


Babylon became powerful only because unlike the Assyrians, Babylon was good the Jewish people. Even tho the Jews were in captivity they had freedom.

And the Great Babylon came down after its services were no longer needed and because they were not believers of the faith/doctrines

Christians believe that to have God's blessing they must support/help the Jewish Nation,

as they have suffered long enough.

It is also our duty to help the Palestinians find a solution to their problems.

Only good and greatness comes to those that help the weak.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Way2Old4Dis on Fri Jul 25 2014, 14:54

There has to be a solution, but it won't be 'political' in the traditional sense. It's politics that keeps it going, IMO. If politicians were willing to change the paradigm, it would have been done by now. I can't believe that generations of families are happy to live under threat of bombings, assassinations, and terror; to have children to whom you must explain that their future is limited and whom you must prepare to lose at any minute; to watch a succession of men assume power only to prolong the conflict while they themselves remain safe. But, through 'politics,' they have little choice. Look at the way the tragic murder of the three Israeli teens was used and manipulated to justify more violence. That's politics at work. Don't look for a solution there, because it will never be found.

I don't think that the average, non-radicalized, man/woman-in-the-street Palestinian has an unyielding desire or compulsion to destroy Israel or every Israeli. Likewise, I doubt that every Jew in the Middle East is dead set on eliminating any trace of Palestine. But each side has been indoctrinated that that is exactly what the other is doing. And there is nothing worse than two wounded, defensive cultures in a fight where mutual existence has been taken off the table by the powers-that-be.

Change will have to come through civil revolt. By the populations, with support of the rest of the world, saying to their so-called leaders, "We're sick of you and this shit. Enough. We refuse to fight for you and your bullshit political agenda. We want lives with a purpose other than destroying other lives." And most importantly, teaching their children, and their children's children. Because this irrational bloodshed is going to take years to bring to a halt. There's no getting the lost generations back (and think of the lost to humanity, what those lives could have brought to the world), but there is the possibility of saving the ones of the future. And I think 'possibility' is all a revolution needs. Right now, nobody in this conflict sees it, and that is the core of the problem.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Fri Jul 25 2014, 18:16

Very well said...It was nice to read. and I agree  Laughing

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Fri Jul 25 2014, 21:03

Yes Israel bombed a UN site. Which was right next to where Hamas set up their troops. If you use civilians as human shields, Israel is going to warn the civilians and then bomb anyway.

Also, let's not forget the hundreds and hundreds of rockets that Hamas has been shooting into Israel for quite a long time now.


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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Fri Jul 25 2014, 21:24

Yep true and I think it is important to remember that Hamas is not Palestine.
 
Hamas is an organisation and since 2007 they won most seats in the Palestine Parliament.

The western countries see Hamas as a terrorist organisation and some others like Russia and China not. 

And I think that is the most problem. When ever Israel bombs Palestine it does not hurt really Hamas only the civilians which their use. And when civilians die the Hamas makes big propaganda against Israel. 

I think many people can not make the difference between Hamas people and Palestine people and many think they are the same. So they start to hate them all. And I think lot of people in Israel put Hamas people and Palestine people just together. 

And by the way, I find it always weird when Israel warns the civilians first and then bombs them. I know Israel wants to give them a chance to flee but all Gaza borders are closed and Gaza is so small. 
If you hear Israel warnings it's like "Ok Israel will bomb any minute where do I hide at this corner or maybe under this tree or maybe two street down"..... sorry  sarcasm 

I wish Egypt would open the border at least families with their kids could flee

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Fri Jul 25 2014, 23:13

As long as terror organisations anywhere in the world are supported and armed by governments and international arms dealers this kind of problem will exist. IMO every country in the world has blood on its hands.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Sat Jul 26 2014, 00:46

We all have blood on our hands.

Every time we get in our autos, start them up and drive, we've gotten oil from some country that has armed, funded or promoted terrorism.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sat Jul 26 2014, 06:55

I sadly agree
but by now
what is the different option?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sat Jul 26 2014, 11:04

electric cars  Razz

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sat Jul 26 2014, 19:19

good

electricity made by?


how storage it?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LornaDoone on Sat Jul 26 2014, 19:33

hydrogen fuel vehicles - the only output from the tailpipe is water.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sat Jul 26 2014, 21:35

cost ?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sat Jul 26 2014, 21:45

Here some informtions:


"The cost of charging the battery depends on the price paid per kWh of electricity - which varies with location. As of November 2012, a Nissan Leaf driving 500 mi (800 km) per week is estimated to cost US$600 per year in charging costs in Illinois, U.S.[71]"




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sat Jul 26 2014, 21:54

charging by?

electricity ?

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sat Jul 26 2014, 21:57

Yes Electricity. See pic below. That's how you charge the battery 



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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by melbert on Sat Jul 26 2014, 22:15

You need a really loooooooooooooooooooooong extension cord!  hahahahahaha

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jul 26 2014, 22:30

They're working on solar power for cars, too. If we want to get away from using oil we have to stop using it for heating and power also. Using solar or wind power for your home is a way to cut down on oil consumption.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sat Jul 26 2014, 22:37

In Germany you see lot of homes with solar on their roofs and we have a lot of wind power. 

We generated so far 74% of power from Renewable Energy. Lot of other countries make fun of us that we are so advanced about it.

See link if you are interested...

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3436923/germany-energy-records/

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by LizzyNY on Sat Jul 26 2014, 22:53

I wish more countries followed your lead. Passive energy is the way of the future - it has to be, because some day we will run out of oil.

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sat Jul 26 2014, 23:46

sure
we will need to use ecological energy only (sun, wind, water, geohtermic heat) but we still need a way to storage the unused energy

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by party animal - not! on Sun Jul 27 2014, 00:00

....and to stop eating so much meat, and to stop using so much oil, and to stop cutting down the rainforest, and.....and......

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Jul 27 2014, 09:25

yes about meat
feeding those animals it needs an huge amount of water (bec all they eat to grow big)

blue gold
next issue....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by theminis on Sun Jul 27 2014, 09:27

And the land that you need to look after cattle adequately - the list goes on and on

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Jul 27 2014, 09:39

right
but I guess we need to look at the most important of those problems
fixing priorities

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sun Jul 27 2014, 10:29

it's me wrote:sure
we will need to use ecological energy only (sun, wind, water, geohtermic heat) but we still need a way to storage the unused energy

You can storage the energy already. It is not lost  Very Happy

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Jul 27 2014, 11:07

tell me how pl
it seems I am not well informed

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Nicky80 on Sun Jul 27 2014, 11:14

Sorry I can not explain it how.

Those companies and government does save the energy but not sure how it works. It is a technical question. My friend has solar power on the roof and during the summer they save all the energy what they use then for winter. And the government can save the energy too. But I'm not knowledgeable enough about it that I can explain how that works....

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by it's me on Sun Jul 27 2014, 11:30

thanks
I make a lil search
found here in Italy it is still too expensive

but there are many ways to save energy which comes from sun and wind
researchs still go ahead

thanks!

I hope technology will find ASAP new ways to save it at the less cost

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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

Post by Silje on Sun Jul 27 2014, 13:40

I visited Israel several times when I was young as a kibbutz volonteer. This was a long time ago before the first Intifada. Unfortunately enough I can't see an end to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Three major religions all having claims on Jerusalem and other holy places. There are a lot of people outside of Israel who have a stake in this conflict.

Also Israel is a tiny country with a big desert (Negev) and there is too many people and not enough land or water supply. The Jordan River is more like a creek then a river.

No, can't see an end to this conflict.

What worries me more right now is ISIS
controling big parts of Iraq and Syria. They are driving Christians out of Mosul (Iraq) and executing a lot of Syrian militaries.

The West support the Opposition against Assad in Syria but the Muslim Fundamentalist (ISIS and others)are more and more dominating that opposition.

Young men from Western Europe go to fight in Syria a lot of them for ISIS. There is a big terror alert in Norway right now thats links to Syria.

The Russians support Assad for their on reasons of course ( Need a Navy base in the Mediterreanan etc).Russia is on the move again, trying to expand West as usual.They been doing this for centuries.Now they want a slice of the Ukraine back. But when it comes to Syria maybee they are right backing Assad? If the alternative is ISIS?










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Re: Palestine / Israel Conflict

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